Episode 299 / Katherine Freeley / Boehringer Ingelheim / Head of Media
Using AI to Supercharge Your Human Will Set You Free
Subscribe to Our Newsletter
It may sound like a Matrix-style prediction, but AI is increasingly driving marketers to optimise their content for bots, so we will eventually end up with very similar outputs all around. Then, it’s your humanity that will set you apart and free, says Katherine Freeley, Head of Media at Boehringer Ingelheim.
In her second appearance on the podcast, Katherine shares why she’s picked AI as a “boost to the human” as her shiny new object. Five years on from our previous conversation, we discuss the future of marketing, with AI democratising access to data and newcomers into the industry having to consider how to be more productive than ever, while using their spare time for unique, philosophical thinking.
Katherine also shares how to balance the complicated maze of data, her biggest career mistake, and more data driven marketing tips. Tune in to hear it all.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Katherine Freeley 0:00
Data and a data driven approach, and you fine tuning your story based on that data really is a very powerful tool in marketing.
Speaker 0:14
Are you a fitness loving foodie? Then defy snacks is for you. Defy offers real high quality chocolate you love, combined with functional ingredients, giving you as much as 26 grammes of protein per bag. So you can be both a little bit bad and a little bit good at the same time as a female owned brand, defy dedicates a portion of its profits to other women owned businesses currently sold in the US. You can find us on defy with an i snacks.com and follow us on social at defy snacks.
Tom Ollerton 0:48
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform. And this is a weekly show about the future of data driven marketing, where I get the absolute pleasure and privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders about the future of our industry. So I'm on a call this week with Katherine Freeley, who is head of media at Boehringer Ingelheim. So Katherine, you've been on the podcast before. It's so good to have you back. Can you tell the audience a bit about who you are and what you do and what we've missed since we last had you on the show.
Katherine Freeley 1:24
Yeah, no. So thank you. Tom it's a pleasure to be back. It was a great experience for the first time, and you know, I'm excited to do it the second time. I think it's been five years. I am the Head of Media for Boehringer Ingelheim. For those who don't know who what Boehringer Ingelheim is. It's the largest privately owned pharma company from Germany, from Ingelheim. So I have been there for almost two years. I truly love my job. My title is a little bit misleading. I'm a head of media, but I really oversee a lot of things, media measurement, creative strategy, production strategy, implementation of AI within the marketing space, I really do a lot, and I'm and I just really love it, because for me, this like what makes me tick and makes me happy.
Tom Ollerton 2:33
I can't believe it's been five years. That's mad.
Katherine Freeley 2:36
I know, time flies when you're having fun.
Tom Ollerton 2:39
Well indeed, and it's great to have seen you do so well in that period. So you know the drill. Let's get back to it. So the first question, maybe, since we've met, or maybe in your career as a whole, what has been the biggest mistake you've made in your career that you are actually really glad that happened?
Katherine Freeley 2:57
Yeah, this is a really good question, because usually people talk about accomplishments, but nobody ever talks about mistakes. And I truly think that you know mistakes is what makes you stronger, and you can learn from them and actually get to a higher level in your career. So here's my story. I've been with one company for 12 years, and, you know, I worked really hard and and I got to a higher global role. And you know, I had one mentor in a company that I loved for many, many years, and I worked really hard for him. And then I go to this global role, and I lead this huge project, and we go in front of the president of the company, and we have this recommendation for this huge project, which was this big global agency, contractor negotiations, and I did it all, and I empowered myself, and I felt so good, and I did such a great job. And the President and all the senior leadership is like, wow, you know she really knows what she's talking about. And I can see in their eyes how, you know they really, truly, like, saw me with, like, a different, I guess, in a different light. And so I felt really good. And you can ask me, How is this a mistake? But then I see my mentor for years looking at me like, wow, with fear in his eyes. And I was like, Whoa, this is a big mistake, because I know that he's coming to be my boss again, and he did, and this moment really changed the entire relationship, because, I guess from a mentee, I became a bit of like a competitor, and that changed our relationship altogether, which sort of made me actually leave the company and pursue a different opportunity. But you know, it was a good thing for me, because I actually opened up a completely different career path with changing the companies, changing the positions, and I totally empowered myself, and I think, realise my strength as a professional, and that empowered me to pursue my career with, like, a completely different passion, and really, sort of like an ambition to get higher than I was in the past.
Tom Ollerton 5:41
So that's a really useful story to help people plan their own career strategies. Basically, what I'm hearing there is that the relationships can change, and overnight one one very powerful relationship can be a competitive thing could turn into a competitive one as things change. So that's that's kind of a big strategic bit of advice and story. But have you got a bit of advice that would help anyone become a better data driven marketer?
Katherine Freeley 6:07
Yes, sure. You know, I think that data, data is what sets us right now, you know, free in a way, but it's also a complicated maze. So I think that, you know my advice when it comes to data driven I think I even I was always data driven and evidence based, even though, even before this became a Buzz Bingo and everybody started to use it, the reason why I always liked the data driven approach is that that sort of sets you free. If you really learn and organise your data points, you can actually sell any points to anybody. And I think that that is allowing allowing you to stay close to you know what you're trying to say to that sell to that senior leadership. For example, you know, Boehringer, as a pharma company, doesn't really have a strong or didn't have a strong direct to consumer practice in media, in creative, in marketing, altogether, we're super strong. HCP, so healthcare professional, you know, marketing companies super strong. But in the direct to consumer area, we we don't have a big marketing department. We don't have a lot of people supporting it. So very often I hear, and also, we are a European company, right, which we're healthcare, we always advertise to just healthcare professional. We don't advertise directly to the consumers. So there's also this global thinking that direct to consumer advertising is very inefficient. It's also not focused. It's just sort of like what senior leadership always tells me. It's like spraying and praying or another famous saying is spreading peanut butter on all over the bread, right? And I say no, this is really far away from this. You know, in the past, yes, there was 50% of advertising that was wasted. The only problem was, you just didn't know which one, right? But those days, you know, because we have the data that sets us free, and we have audiences, we are actually quite precise. And we use, you know, a lot of machine learning. We use a lot of AI in both media and creative right to make sure that we reach, reach our audiences with very high precision. And so when I, whenever I do this presentation, data driven, audience based, direct to consumer advertising. Every single leader that I present to senior leader is like, Wow. I really was so confused. And I really thought that it was such a, you know, praying and praying approach. But when I hear you present, I can hear that, you know, you have a very, actually precise way of reaching audiences, consumer audiences. So my advice, I think, to people, is have your stories supported by data and really fine tune it. And whenever you stand in front of the senior leadership, you know, try to, you know, debunk their myths, because there's a lot of myths up there, and it's not even to senior leadership, but I think that, you know, it can be to anybody truthfully. But I think the data and a data driven approach, and you fine tuning your story based on that data, really is a very powerful tool in marketing.
Tom Ollerton 10:08
So now we're going to move on to your shiny new object, which is using AI to boost your human which sounds amazing. What do you mean? What is that? And why is it your shiny new object? And let's get into it.
Katherine Freeley 10:21
Yeah, no, thank you for asking this. So, you know, everybody talks about ai, ai, this, AI that ai, ai, ai, and, you know, I truly think AI is great. We're going to have to change the way how we are going to market. You know, for years we're marketing to humans. And when we uncovered, you know, years ago, that actually there's a lot of bots in the on the internet, we're like, No, we only want human traffic, you know. And right now, all of this, you know, is changing, because actually now we have to learn how to market to bots, because soon it's going to be, you know, there will be no link based search, and content needs to be optimised for agentic AI systems. Our marketing is going to be really focused a lot on marketing to the bots. So I think that we, you know, went like, we switched like, 180 like we wanted to all market to humans. Now we need to learn how to be good marketers to bots. But, you know, I think that that human element is something that's going to actually set us free, because AI driven searches, AI driven content, AI driven media. The biggest, I guess, downfall of this is going to be very similar, because, you know, AI driven images are really the same. So we're, you know, you have to now use that human element is going to be the point of difference that will set you free from the rest of you know, your the marketing campaigns where AI boosts human elements is the area of you can be more productive with AI. So much more productive. What took you in the past days to create a really good presentation and a really great video can be now done in minutes or in hours. It can be fine tuned within a day, right? So I think that where AI is extremely helpful right now is to actually make you super human. So it's boosting your human element, so you can spend more time actually on thinking about what's new, what's different, what's breaking through the clutter. How can you be more innovative? How can you be building your own brand, and not only the brand you market, but also your personal brand? So I think that AI is amazing, because it's, you know, supercharging the human abilities in achieving so much more in a shorter time, and also giving us the time to actually be more human, finding the point of difference in our humanity, which will, you know, set us aside from the competitors using AI. So I think that that's my shiny new object. You know, is, how do we harness the power of AI in order to actually find more time to be calm and stay more human?
Tom Ollerton 11:55
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with madfest, whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect a distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from Madfest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage, recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
Tom Ollerton 14:34
So we're going to push you on this, right? So we're seeing a trend with our clients and in the industry going, right? What we're going to do is we're going to use AI to do exactly what we're doing before we're quicker and cheaper, right? No CFO is going to argue with that, right? We get the same output for less input, right? Brilliant. So that's happening on. On the brand side right, and that we'll maybe get into that a bit later, but there's huge opportunity being missed there by most brands. But secondly, you're talking about what would have taken weeks now. It takes a minute or an hour or a day. You can pull together presentations, and it frees up time to do strategic things, to be more human, to think laterally. I understand all of that, but what I'm seeing is that I did some research, was that last week for it wasn't for some paid work, it was for, like, an internal project, and it definitely saved me half a day. May have saved me a day in time, but I didn't then take that half a day off. I just got ... did more. So I think that what it's doing is it's creating the ability for us to do more with, let more with the same as a as a and, but I think there's a short term advantage based on what you're saying, which is like, if you've got two people who are exactly the same level of ability, one person uses AI, they will get what... they can get their stuff done quicker, but generally speaking, everyone will come on board with it after a while. As you say, Link based search will will decrease, and it will be marketing to most, but I just think that we'll be expected to do more for the same amount of money, not spend less time doing some stuff and thinking strategically. Now we could have like, 500 clients instead of 100 you know, with the same amount of people, it's not like we're going to free up time to go and, yeah, have philosophical thoughts. And, yeah, so what do you think? Am I just being provocative here, that actually we're just going to do more with the same amount, as opposed to free up our time to think these beautiful thoughts?
Katherine Freeley 16:39
Well, I think that you're right about this. I think that you know, the pace of business is going to expect us to do more within the same time. And those who will be able to, you know, master this, will probably be the ones that will, you know, move in their careers faster, right? And that's for sure, is you know what is ahead of us. But I think that you know, if you can get smart with how you use your tools, you can also free up a little bit of time to start thinking strategically, and I think that that's super important, because when you think about this, Tom like, what's going to set you apart? I mean, you know what AI is doing to us is democratising the insights, democratising the access to data, right? So, as you said in the past, it would take you a long time to do a research. Right now, you just, you know, ask the chat bots to, you know, the question and and the chat bot gives you the answer really, really quickly, yes, fine. Maybe you can fine tune it, and it will take you, you know, a little bit longer, but at the end of the day, this is saving you a long time, a lot of time. So I truly, truly think that we have to find a bit of time for strategic thinking or philosophical thinking, because that is the only difference, you know, that I see between humans and AI. And actually, I don't, I don't know if you recall what we talked about, you know when, when we had the podcast five years ago, but I think that what we talked about is that, you know, the human emotions will set you free from sort of the AI, like, you know, the love is your killer app. I think was my little podcast with you. And, you know, the truth is that I've changed my opinion quite a bit, because actually AI can be quite compassionate, can be quite, you know, emotional. And actually, AI, if AI, needs to be compassionate for a very, very long time. Ai, if it's programmed this way, is compassionate forever. A human being can be compassionate for, you know, a short period of time. And then there's other things that make you, you know, not being able to be compassionate forever, right? So I truly think that you know that is not a difference that's going to differentiate us from AI or agentic system. I think it's this ability of conceptual thinking, that ability of being philosophical is what will set us apart from AI and agentic bots or systems. So I truly believe that this is crucial for humans, even though you're going to do much less, much more, sorry, and you're going to be expected to do much more in the same time in. Going to have to find some time to actually work on your humanity, if that makes any sense to you.
Tom Ollerton 20:05
So my secret thoughts about this is that there's a kind of worrying moment at some point in the future, and I've no idea when, but for a certain sort of marketing, for a certain sort of product, I think that the whole thing will be fully automated, and there'll be the headcount will be drastically reduced, basically, if you could have, like, a chief marketing officer, and she says, right, okay, this is our we're gonna, I'm gonna generate the position using AI. We're gonna, and this, what the this, what the media plan is that's also generated by AI but based on previous data. And then these are all the ads we need, and then they just get made, and then send out there and optimise and all the rest of it. I do think that the real opportunity will be in product development, so thinking laterally about which products should be created, and then testing those before they're launched with the same systems.
Katherine Freeley 20:54
Yeah, I agree with you. I think that, you know, I've seen some stats, I think at this year's CS in Vegas that said that 83% of all the marketing jobs will be automated. Can be taken by AI. So automated, right? So I don't disagree with you on this area, that most of marketing can be or will be automated. I also don't disagree with you that the product new product development is going to be the way of the future, but I think that's where your human creativity comes into place, right? So you as a human will be thinking about what's new, how you can position your products differently. How can you find the white space or to position your products? And the process of marketing, as well as creative development, media strategy and activation, is going to be 85% automated, right? Or maybe 90% automated. But I think that that area of thinking and positioning and finding the white space probably is still will be safe for humans for a little bit of time. I don't know how long? Because as much as I think that, you know, we will still be the better than AI can be. You know, I don't know what my point of view on this is going to be in five years. Do you agree? Or do you think...
Tom Ollerton 22:35
Yeah well, one question that came to mind as you saying that is, imagine you're a graduate and you're just getting into this industry. What would you do? Would you be like, Oh, no, it's not this industry's not gonna exist in five years or 10 years or 20 years, that she shouldn't do it. Or how would you advise a graduate getting into this space with bearing in mind what we've just been talking about?
Katherine Freeley 22:56
Yeah no, this is a great question. And actually, you know, my daughter is just going to college, so and she is picking anthropology as her major and Chinese as her minor. And, you know, I What is the advice that I'm giving her is being, I think she's trying to learn about the origin of human race, right, and what made us human and the history of humankind. And I actually was thinking that, Oh, my goodness, what is she going to do with that knowledge? But I was very supportive, because I'm very happy that, you know, she got into the college she wanted, and she's pursuing her dream. But I truly think that, you know, perhaps going back to the beginning of the human race and studying us, how we've evolved, is something that maybe is very helpful to people that are trying to get into the marketing space. You know, I think that what I would advise them, be curious, never stop learning. Because I think the continuous improvement and the continuous learning is something that actually will set you up, or set you apart from the AI and agentic systems, because when you think about this is, you know, AI has been trained generations, 1000s, decades of human knowledge, right? And because it's, it's computers, it's they're so smart, they're super computers that they just learn all our knowledge in the past. And I think two years since 2023 right? And you know, they were able to actually get so much smarter based on all this data collected by humans for so many decades and years and 1000s of years. So I think that you know what will set apart this new generation is actually, you know, trying to be creative and trying to find something new, always something new, right? Because that continuous learning, I think, is what's going to set them apart, because that's how they can train the new generation of AI. And I think as being able to set yourself apart as a human is what's going to make you successful for the next generation. What that is exactly? I don't know Tom yet, but I think it's comes with the continuous learning.
Tom Ollerton 25:33
That is a beautiful, profound and positive thought to end this podcast with. And what a shame we have to stop talking. But we both have other jobs to do, and I'm going to see you for dinner in Cannes apparently. So that's exciting, but I don't think we'll record that, or maybe we should.
Katherine Freeley 25:47
I don't know, let's see how the conversation goes, but I'm looking forward to seeing you on the French Riviera.
Tom Ollerton 25:53
So if someone wants to get in touch with you, where is it a good place? And what makes a good message?
Katherine Freeley 25:57
What makes a good message? I think the message that's authentic and authentic, I'm going to say authentic, because if you want people to remember your message, it has to break through, through the clutter, and it needs to grab, you know, your attention, and I think that one of the most important KPIs, or metrics that I started to actually pay attention to is the share of human attention, because that is so difficult to grab those days Tom as we live in a more complex and cluttered marketing environment, and, you know, creative messaging, media, it's just all very noisy those days. So how do you break through that noise of the authentic message is something that I will strive to to in the future.
Tom Ollerton 27:01
Well, that is great advice. So I hope you'll be inundated with authentic and beautiful and meaningful messages on your LinkedIn. I'll ask you about that when I see you. Katherine, thank you so much for your time.
Katherine Freeley 27:13
Thank you so much Tom.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.