Episode 305 / Anastasia Leng (CEO & Founder, CreativeX) & Thorsten Schapmann (Global Media Director, Beiersdorf)
Making Sense of Where AI Search Will Take Marketers and Consumers
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As consumers engage more with ChatGPT than with Google searches, the question arises as to how do marketers and brands produce content that ranks for LLMs? And what are the implications for data driven marketing as a whole?
Just before flying out of Cannes, we sat down with Anastasia Leng (CEO and Founder of CreativeX) and Thorsten Schapmann (Global Media Director at Beiersdorf) to talk about their common shiny new object - AI search.
As Anastasia puts it, “we need to start breaking down the information we have in a much more structured way to enable LLMs to quickly find and categorise our products in a way that can be discoverable.”
But is that the only action point? If we’re using AI search the way we used Google, with simple questions, are we getting the most out of what the LLMs can offer? Thorsten argues that more sophisticated prompting will yield more satisfying results, so there’s a world of learning and developing ahead of us.
We also discuss new beliefs and behaviours as the two have advanced in their careers, and we pick out a top data driven marketing tip from each. Tune in to the podcast to get all the information.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Anastasia Leng 0:00
Think about how you can create, essentially, curiosity pipeline or process for yourself that helps you figure out and make sure that you can challenge your own biases as you're driving to an answer, and have that be a repeatable system you follow when you're working on any problem.
Thorsten Schapmann 0:16
Sell the so what? So how do you get really to the essence, and how do you tell the story that will bring impact, insights and change something or moves the needle out of the data?
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Tom Ollerton 1:01
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, and this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. Every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of speaking to one of our industry's leaders. And this week is sort of different, because I'm speaking to two and it's also quite unusual, because this is my last day in Cannes, and I think everyone's very proud of that who's here, but everyone who isn't in Cannes doesn't care. But just for context, I'm sat here on the roof of creative X's play villa. Call it villa. It's very nice. I've been accommodated by those lovely people for the last week or so. So thank you for that. But I'm I'm sat here with two special guests. I'm sat here with Thorsten Schapmann, who is associated Vice President of Global Media at Beiersdorf, and Anastasia Leng, who is CEO and founder of creative x, so it's double trouble. So guys, can you introduce yourself to the audience for someone who may not know who you are and what you do?
Thorsten Schapmann 2:08
Yeah, so I'm Thorsten. I am since 20 something years in the business of digital. I started on corporate side a couple of years on digital agency side, and since 10 years, I am on Beiersdorf side with different roles on local, regional and global levels, since couple of years now.
Tom Ollerton 2:28
Fantastic.
Anastasia Leng 2:29
Chivalry is dead here on this podcast. But I'm Anastasia Leng. I'm the founder and CEO of CreativeX. This is my second startup. Before that, I was at Google, also working as both a product marketing manager and marketing manager. Have been the CEO of this company for the last 10 years, and am balancing on how to be a founder, CEO and the CEO of a fast, growing company.
Tom Ollerton 2:51
So we'll, we'll start with the first question for you, Anastasia, so the question you guys have chosen to both answer the same one is, in the last five years, what new belief or behaviour has changed your work life for the better.
Anastasia Leng 3:07
So one of the things I've observed about myself is very few things actually stress me out at work, except for one, and the number one thing that stresses me out at work is people, people issues. Whenever those things happen, it's the one. It will, quite literally, keep me up at night. And one bit of advice I got a few years ago from a CEO who was running a much bigger company is he said after product market fit, which is the stage where you know that people want your product, they successfully use it to achieve a goal. He said after product market fit, any problem you have in the company is a factor of not having the right person working on that problem. And I think that belief and that succinct point of view has given me the courage to make the tough people decisions that not only improved my mental and emotional health, but actually ended up really improving the way the business worked.
Thorsten Schapmann 4:00
So we have the same question. I'm already very much inspired from your answer. Mine is much easier. What stresses me out is having just too many obligations, saying too often yes to things. So I definitely have much more nos now, like although, having said that, I'm sitting now here, who sent me just an invite two days ago, so I didn't say no, but this is something I think you need to learn to say no and be still polite, because otherwise you are drawn to meetings, drawn in contacts and drawn in topics, and that leads you away from the focus on what's really important.
Tom Ollerton 4:37
I find that absolutely terrifying, because you're a mega, super senior global vice president of media now, and I really struggle with saying no. I love saying yes to everything. And I would have thought by the time you get to your level of seniority, you've learned to say no, but you haven't, so maybe actually saying yes isn't such a bad thing.
Thorsten Schapmann 4:55
Exactly. So sometimes you have to say yes.
Tom Ollerton 4:58
So we're going to move on now. So to advice. So what bit of data driven marketing advice do you find yourself sharing most often, like little silver bullet of insight that you pass on to your teams? What do you find yourself saying most often when it comes to helping people be a better data driven marketer?
Thorsten Schapmann 5:17
So definitely, to sell the so what? So bringing the storytelling into the data make it tangible to those stakeholders, very often top management stakeholders who are not so deep in the data topic, because very often you see data driven people coming from a data analytical background, and they love to analyse, and if to give them data, the tools they can end up in a rabbit hole of data analytics. So how do you get really to the essence, and how do you tell the story that will bring impact insights and change something or moves the needle out of the data.
Anastasia Leng 6:03
So the biggest observation I've made in people who are on their journey to becoming a data driven marketer, frankly, in any profession, really, is that they try to optimise very much for the end result. But the problem with that is, in every situation, they almost have to start over the learning process, right? They fixate so much of what they need to achieve that they don't really focus on, how do I build a repeatable system and process for consistently getting to the right answer? And so my biggest advice is, think about how you can create essentially curiosity pipeline or process for yourself that helps you figure out and make sure that you can challenge your own biases as you're driving to an answer, and have that be a repeatable system you follow when you're working on any problem, such that you are perfecting your own system of working and getting to an answer you have conviction on, rather than just getting to that answer and hoping you got to the right one.
Tom Ollerton 7:09
So now we've got to know you guys a bit better, we're going to talk about your shiny new object, which is AI search, right? And what I love about this topic is, all of five minutes ago, we were sitting here going, Well, we know what it is. We know it's going to be really big, but we don't really know that much about it. We're all senior at our different levels, so I'm really interested to have a discussion and a debate about this thing that we that no one really fully understands. So I don't know who wants to answer this, but what, what made you guys choose AI search or LLM search as the shiny new object?
Thorsten Schapmann 7:44
Happy to start first, because in our business of skincare, search, as always, has been awesome. Of course, for me, big passion point as consumers are searching for solutions for the problems around skin, whatever it is. And of course, the big G and the Google platform is over years now, the machine that we learned how to optimise with organic and paid and so on so forth. What we see now, and we have a recent study thatconsumers are tending more and more into LLM solution, of course, chatgpt being very much in the forefront of getting answers to their skin problems or want advice. And with this, of course, now the whole, let's say, mechanic that we learned in the past, how to drive, or organic how you be, how to be, on the top list, is something that we, of course, question ourselves. How do those models get the information? Are we visible where it matters? And so that's something for me, new shiny, but also super exciting. It feels a bit like 20 years ago when the whole SEO thing started. Sometimes it's the same thinking you have to go to the ground. What are the sources, how to manage, and what kind of content, or what kind of solutions, etc, etc, you need to, need to provide, to really understand, to be the, in our case, number one skincare brand, being the brand that has the best answer, and then being, for example, a solution that someone asked her.
Tom Ollerton 9:19
And so what have you worked out so far?
Thorsten Schapmann 9:21
Well, actually, we are really at the starting point. That's it. What we looking into is understanding, for example, those kind of sources we have seen, currently, a study in Germany, that a lot of comparison websites where external publishers are looking for the best, sun care solutions, et cetera, et cetera. Those are the sources that some LLMs are using to provide you with the answer. It's not that much your brand website, for example, which, of course, in Google is the go to. So of course, it's a list of and they probably change it every time. It's also quite interesting now, how do they make out of this LLM search a business when you as an advertiser, are not really sure what is the algorithm change of next week or even tomorrow? So at Google, you have this kind of releases, and you, of course, never publish what is the secret behind but you have a way to learn over time, and you can be, let's say, sure that it's robust for a couple of months or even a year. In those words, we it's a totally new and that's where we're now starting to learn what is the right right sources, and where do we have to change our content strategy, and where do we need to be top notch to be to be found.
Tom Ollerton 10:41
So Anastasia, as we someone described this to me once it's a dark room with, you know, we're fumbling around in the dark trying to work out where the where the furniture is so we don't trip over. I think we're all ... it feels like as an industry when we're in a dark room of working with AI search. So it almost seems that like, is it fair to say that if you've got good SEO, normal old SEO, if you like, then, then you will do well in search, because if you show up successfully in comparison websites, if you do have a good corporate site, if you're mentioned in lots of different Reddits and all the rest of it is that, is that the way you're seeing it? Or have you, do you have other Intel?
Anastasia Leng 11:18
Well, certainly don't have other Intel. I I don't know if SEO is perfectly transferable to LLMs, mainly because I think we're going to need to look at the problem from from a much more structured data perspective. So I'll give you an example. The reason I'm really fascinated about this is I've seen, personally, my search pattern change really dramatically over the last couple of months. And I'll give you a skincare example. You know, I'm getting old, and I need to hide those wrinkles. And so the other day I was, I was, you know, chatting with chat GPT, and saying, what are some of the ingredients that are so natural and proven to help with wrinkle reduction? And I got collagen retinol, Thorsten, you tell me if that's legitimate. And and then I said, Great, I would like a skincare product. Money's no object that has high concentration, I know, very relatable has high concentration of retinol and collagen. And, you know, it gave me three sort of ranked them on their percentage of collagen retinol, and I bought in like five minutes, right? And so I've just noticed that, and as a consumer, I've gotten a lot lazier. In some ways I don't want to troll through tonnes of web pages, but so all of this is a very long way of saying that, in this case, maybe SEO would have helped, maybe wouldn't, but I wonder to what extent we need to start breaking down the information we have in a much more structured way to enable LLMs to quickly find and categorise our products in a way that can be discoverable.
Tom Ollerton 12:52
But my question is, is that would whatever product that was, would that have even showed up in the LLM if the SEO wasn't good in the first place, because SEO really is a measure of authority. Yes, it was. Don't have the online authority anyway. Could the LLM have even picked it up?
Anastasia Leng 13:10
Well, so it's a great question. I don't know. Well, what I do know is, because I was so interested in it, I really just noticed my search pattern changing. What I then went in is I went into Google search and typed in, you know, high concentration retinal collagen, like moisturiser, basically, and did not get any of the three products that chat GPT recommended to me, none, right? And, and so this tells me that there is some, some difference. Part of that difference is, you know, the way that the search quality score works is probably biassing towards different things. Part of it is obviously the first things you see are ads, right? And sponsored listings, where relevance is a little bit of a different algorithm and beast. So I don't know, but it does feel to me like there is something different, mainly because a lot of SEO was relatively unstructured data.
Tom Ollerton 14:01
So looking forward a bit here, and I don't know, I'm not tight on the numbers here, but I think Chat GPT Open AI spent $9 billion last year to make $5 billion right? So there is money needs to be made somewhere. And I think I heard you discussing earlier, at some point they're gonna have to put some ads within that experience and how that's gonna play out. But what's gonna happen there? So if I say, I want a college, what was it? Collagen? Collagen and retinol, retinol, collagen for my ageing ginger skin. Are they gonna throw an ad at the top and then have the then have the generative results? So how do you see that playing out, Thorsten?
Thorsten Schapmann 14:42
Well, that's exactly my my question, the way. I mean, first of all, I agree that the search patterns in general are changing. It's much more personal and you, but I found quite interesting that you trusted an LLM blindly. Buying stuff that you don't know where the sources comes from. So it's like, I mean, I would have an opinion, but we can take it offline. Amazing, as always, no, the the question is, is a fair one? So if I don't understand as a as a brand, what is the sources behind how can I be sure that? I mean, of course, I would stand target more, very personal such behaviour, just better. So at least I would have known that Anastasia is very much involved in a skincare problem, routine solution. So of course, that might be already enough for me to say, okay, here I want to give you a solution, even if whatever is your LLM optimization content is not available, it's a fast path to at least show a brand. But in this case, I'm not sure if this is, will be the solution that really brings the advertisers to the LLM revenue stream. So I'm, I'm still very, very curious how it will develop, but I can't see currently, that's, that's one of the, let's say, the easy base. Probably they will do it because it's a quick wins. But yeah, that that's something I'm not having had my head around.
Tom Ollerton 16:26
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Tom Ollerton 17:03
So I have a dark theory to share with you, right? So bear with me on this. So currently, I would argue that the user interface for an LLM or the user experience is question based, right? And we are using that because that's how we have used old search. Let's call it old search, or whatever Google search, or whatever searches, however I see the power of LLMs to be predictive and decision making, right? So for example, if someone starts off with their goals, right, okay, I want to lose weight, I want to look great, I want to feel great. I want to succeed at my job, and I want to have a healthier relationship with the people that I love, right? That that could be a brief that we some people could relate to, right? Some people that I would like, and then if you gave that brief, then you wouldn't even be saying, I need to look younger. You wouldn't be conducting the search, because you're honestly the helpful analogy you gave, or the story, anecdote Was that you, you applied a kind of Google search attitude towards an LLM, whereas in the future, it may just be: Look, I've seen that photo that you put on Instagram Tom, your skin looks, you know, you're getting a few wrinkles. Actually, I've already bought this thing for you, and it's and it's and it's on it. It's on its way. I need another photo in three weeks time, and we'll talk about the results.
Anastasia Leng 18:23
Yeah, perhaps I think you're absolutely right that I used, I used an LLM to short circuit my research basically right to cut through all the searching that I would have done. It's hard for me to imagine. Or maybe this is a hope that it will be an intrusive ad experience similar to what you have now on on Google search. I do wonder how much of the monetization via something like affiliate links would actually be more applicable, right where the LLM still recommends what it considers the best product based on research, in this case, based on, you know, a search like prompt, but if you complete the purchase right, it receives a portion of of the revenue because it it essentially sending you the traffic. Now, to your point of predictive and probabilistic. I mean, in some ways, you know, this is what Google said they could always do because they can see what you're searching for. They don't know how you feel, but they can see what you're searching for. But I get the data set is not too dissimilar. We do... Again, speaking from personal experience, I do probably share, share things with my ChatGPT that I haven't searched for on Google, because it is more conversational, right? So yes, it's assumed it will have other information. But what I wanted to suggest things to me proactively. It's hard for me to imagine that right now.
Tom Ollerton 19:49
But, but you, but the word you used was time, right, which is, is super interesting, like you short, you short circuited your your search behaviour. And there's a bunch of things, a bunch of purchases that I will make where I don't want to have to make them, like, low consideration, FMCG stuff, you know, cleaning whatever, you know, all that stuff and that all takes time. Every minute I spend buying soap, I don't spend it with my daughter, for example. So I agree with you. I don't want it to send an outfit for Friday night, that would, that would be terrifying. But actually, yes, if it was, like, right skincare, like, you know, you've come back from, Cannes, we know you're in Cannes, you have been hammering your skin, and, you know, you're a ginger man that stage. So, like, here's the thing that you need. I, and I don't want to spend any time on that. I just want that product there.
Anastasia Leng 20:40
See, you would want that kind of experience.
Tom Ollerton 20:40
So from a work context. So I have a bunch of goals that I want to hit as a, as a, essentially a B2B, sales guy, just what's, what's, what's my role. And there's a tonne of things that is so unbelievably boring that it can just take off my hands. So it makes it does jobs for me that would take hours. So if LLM search and predictive choices and decisions like, the one thing I want, and I can't believe it doesn't exist, is a practical application for this, for email, right? Google has whatever Gemini, but, yeah, I open email and it's like, they've got eight emails. It hasn't even got to the stage where it goes, actually, this one from Anastasia about meeting with Thorsten. This, you need to action this now, am I right or wrong? You can sum it up down yet the the email is based on recency, and we confuse recency with importance, right?
Anastasia Leng 21:31
Yeah. And no, I agree. I mean, it's everything from email to calendar. We work on a on a sort of First In, First Out model, which is not reflective of our focus and prioritisation at all. And I do think we're seeing some startups pop up. I know and I can't remember the name of one, but there was one which is exactly this, where there is essentially a a shop front to your email, where you can go in the back room and find all the emails, but it actually says to you, these are the the ones you actually treat and everything else, if you want to go to the back room and check them out, it's fine, but these are the ones you need to read. As an inbox zero person, I have to say, my initial reactions a little little nervous, but, but I would, I would try it out.
Thorsten Schapmann 22:12
You have another question. Otherwise, I'm, I don't. I'm just, I'm just no reflecting on these, on the prompting behaviour. And I like your example, and I think the way, how I assume many consumers will react with LLMs is much more complex. I mean, I get, personally, much more joy in the results when it's much more complex prompting, like you mentioned earlier, from, let's say, well being, and what would be the right recipe and what would you recommend. But then it's again, then how does brand play a role in it? The affiliates, I absolutely think is, again, a very good quick win. So like planning your vacations is something that I like now to do on GPT. So give me the best restaurant. So wait to the best museums around Cannes, where I get tickets, and then, of course, I provide the links and stuff like that. So there is already, I think, a huge use cases where they where is opportunity to drive revenue, but the complexity of problems would probably be the thing that I found quite interesting, and I need to get a head around how brands can play a role in that, versus Google, where it's like much quicker sometimes, and of course, yes, over time, they became questions, and not only words, but now with the LLMs, is really like more complex, conversational discussions, which I personally like as a user interface experience. Yeah. So the role of the brand is something that probably would totally differ from CPGs to travel to insurances, financial products, etc, etc. So that's super exciting to see what's happening.
Tom Ollerton 24:01
A vision I was talking about with a guy called Michael Cohen just now is that I would like to get to a stage where the the LLMs can organise all the stuff that doesn't require any physical action from me. Right? So to your point about that email organiser, imagine that it was trustworthy. And it works because, like, there's some meetings that an LLM can't have on your behalf, right? You need to show up, like, we're going to go for lunch, breakfast, coffee, dinner, whatever it is that needs to happen in person. There isn't. There is no like, an LLM couldn't do that. So I would love to get to a stage where it's Monday morning, and you go, right, what do I need to do? And it's like, you need to spend time with Thorsten. You need to go to the office in Portugal, or whatever it is.
Anastasia Leng 24:47
Well, remember, you had this idea. I don't know if I can talk about this, but you had this idea a while ago, of...
Tom Ollerton 24:54
I'm really worried about what you're going to say.
Anastasia Leng 24:57
Don't worry. It's a it's suitable for a podcast. So you had this idea a while ago, which was you would have essentially an agent who would screen people who wanted to partner with you or who wanted to sell to you, and then essentially decide on your behalf if you should take that meeting and you like that would be really useful, because then you you basically, you know, you talk to the to the to the agent, to the LLM, it knows what the criteria is, and and all of that. And I thought, and maybe this is because I'm a control freak. I wouldn't want that at all, right, because I still believe that, perhaps naively, that there is, there is a judgement call for some of these decisions, like, Who do I hire? You know, who do I partner with? Whose products do I buy? That is a slightly irrational, this not a perfectly rational decision, right? And so I wouldn't trust an LLM to replace some of these things, no matter how structured it was. Now maybe look like, maybe the proof's in the pudding to your point, if they can do this accurate and get to stay in line with your point of view, yes, but then you get into this much bigger conversation, which is, what are the decisions that are merit to your time and attention, versus what are the ones that effectively do not, and you can cross itoff the list.
Tom Ollerton 26:29
I would argue that that is already happening with websites. Right? Every time someone goes to creativex.com they're having, they're having they're having a meeting with you, right? That's an automated meeting, right? It wouldn't like every word that's written on your website came out of your mouth or your fingertips at some point to represent you perfectly in written form. So every time someone comes to your website, effectively, they're having an automated meeting with you, and they're making a judgement call whether they book a demo or whatever it is. So I think that is already happening, and thank you for reminding me of that particular idea that I had. But my point with that was Thorsten global VP, so I got my jobs out like you. You can't afford to spend many hours a week meeting new suppliers. You can't because you've got a job to do, but you also can't afford not to, right? So I like the idea of an LLM search, or not, where it's where it is that. So have a synthetic meeting with you, so your face will appear, and I can have a 14 hour meeting with you if I want to go, Yeah, but what about this? Do you need this and then, but you've briefed that LLM to say, I, you know, this is important to me. This isn't important to me. And sorry, just before I pass over. So you've really got me thinking. I got a call on the Croisette, and it was like a mobile number from the UK, and this really lovely guy was like, I'd love to introduce you to this product called Cool AI, whatever we're, you know, we're a and he was getting a bit nervous, and you could hear the call centre in the background. He's going, oh, like, but I was like, oh, there's something quite charming about it. I'll give him more than a few whatever. And then, and I was like, Are you? Are you a chatbot? He says, Yes, I am. I'm a chatbot. Then, and I was like, I was like, I work in AI. Worked in AI for 10 years. I run a creative automation business. If anyone should be able to spot it... and I did. But it was like, it was so natural. It was brilliant. And then I booked a meeting with him, so unbelievable. It was quite it was, it was a little magical moment. So like...
Thorsten Schapmann 28:30
So your idea is already, more or less reality. And what somebody was in Call Centre in London, probably.
Tom Ollerton 28:37
And I was out, but I was like, Well, what do you do? What's the technology built on? How does it integrate with my own CRM? Like, I was just like, you know, and once I realised there was a robot I could just get, like, there was no, I didn't have to worry about their feelings. And I can't remember the name of the company, but I've got a good understanding of how that works. So that was a synthetic they had a synthetic meeting with me, and I've saved their sales guy, like half an hour an hour, plus all the prep. So...
Thorsten Schapmann 29:04
I just have another I've just heard it last week on another summit that General Manager or director can not even recall the company, but he was testing to being in on several conferences virtually, and doing a Q&A because they, let's say, programme, the LLM and an agent, and so that he could be representative on, I don't know, five different continents at the same time, doing a Q&A that was threatening to a lot of people in the room, some C level people like, Okay, what does it do with liability? What is it when you say something that is, let's say, legally binding, or has, especially on the general manager C level, has also kind of legal implications. So that's, that was really where you see a lot of goosebumps going out being a wow. That's, that's thrilling on the one hand side looks quite astonishing, because you can do reduce the travel time, be more present to your people. But on the other side is really has a huge trust in what's happening in your name, with your face.
Tom Ollerton 30:17
Yeah, this is really annoying. We have to wrap up. Anastasia, you're you have something to share.
Anastasia Leng 30:22
Oh, can I ask? Can I ask a question?
Tom Ollerton 30:26
I have a flight to get so.
Anastasia Leng 30:27
Oh, maybe. Okay, so, so you seem not to be too excited about this concept of, like, affiliate links as the LLM model and almost a like, paint the scenario for me. So you log into GPT, and you get what, an ad, or like a text based recommendation based on its knowledge of your feelings. Like, if you had to design an advertising system within an LLM, I get that you'd want it to be predictive and sort of ahead of you based on what it knows about you. But how would you want the ad to actually show up?
Tom Ollerton 30:55
I think it will be a you know, that you know when you arrive in the kitchen on Monday morning with with your partner, and you're sort of shuffling around each other being smoked salmon or whatever it is. And you're like, What have you got on this week? Oh, well, I've got on, you know, I've gone to seeing Tom to chat with Tom, and I think it will be like that, right? It will be like, okay, chat GPT or whatever your, you know, agent is called. And you'd be like, right? Okay, remind what happened last week, what's going on this week, and then, then it will produce in some form screen, might even be audio about what, what is going to happen, and it will make decisions. And I actually don't think ultimately, there will be an advertising interface. I think actually old school ads served up in a kind of social media format is probably, may well be where it is,
Anastasia Leng 31:45
Aha. So your prediction is actually that that the concept that the way that the LLMs will monetize is through in is through subscription, and they will be useful because of their embedded recommendations ability to serve you, yeah. And this notion of advertising, the LLM, actually isn't necessary at all.
Tom Ollerton 32:03
Yeah. And, you know, even now, like, what? What's the pro version of chat GPT cost $200 you know, like, someone will have, like, well, I pay 10 grand a month for mine, you know. And then maybe the advertisers will pay to, you know, you to influence the search or the and I think the affiliate one is, this is the wisest one. People will bid on being affiliate number one, the programmatically. But I think that's the sensible thing. And advertising always just takes the thing you used to do and shoves it into new thing and hopes it works. Anyway. I have, literally, I have to fly. Oh my God, that's been brilliant. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this discussion, I think, from three people that didn't know anything about AI search, pretty much 20 minutes ago, we've come up with some good stuff.
Thorsten Schapmann 32:44
That's the wonderful world of digital marketing, a lot of buzzwords, a lot of opinions, and really looking forward what will happen in the future. Thank you so much.
Tom Ollerton 32:56
Absolute pleasure.
Anastasia Leng 32:58
Thanks Tom.
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