Episode 180 / Travis Gordon / Danone / Senior Consumer Insights Manager
Podcast: Understanding Consumers’ Neurological Reactions to Brands
In his role as Senior Consumer Insights Manager at Danone, Travis Gordon draws on product research, consumer insights, innovation, advertising and communication tactics to support the projects that marketing teams work on. This has led to the discovery of an in-depth way to understand reactions to Danone’s brands, and Travis’ Shiny New Object: neurological research.
Using insights from a small number of sample consumers fitted with an ECG skullcap has been found to be as representative as thousands of customers responding to questionnaires or in focus groups, according to Travis. His Shiny New Object is this neurological research, looking specifically at how consumers react to and store the memories of a brand’s defining assets.
This sort of research goes to the core of how people really think and feel, because it registers their reactions before they have had the chance to digest the information. Rather than discuss their impressions with them, it helps brands “get at the truth and the core of what people truly want.”
Of course, this type of research isn’t without its drawbacks. One of the main issues when it comes to marketing strategy is the fact that during neurological tests you have the subjects’ undivided attention. This doesn’t happen in a “real world” setting, where ads have to fight for a very fleeting bit of attention from their target audience. Moreover, the neurological research doesn’t account for context, but removes all other variables to simply focus on the brain’s immediate, instinctive reaction to brands.
Neurological research can help inform creative strategy and allow brands to better understand their resonance with consumers. On top of that, Travis advises marketers to strive to make the consumer the hero, rather than the brand, by focusing on the benefits brands can offer them first and foremost. He would also like to remind marketers that “nobody cares about you – you have to make them care.”
Listen to more marketing tips, as well as to Travis’ approach to overwhelm and to more details around how neurological research works, on the latest podcast episode here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Travis Gordon 0:00
Number one, nobody cares about you, you have to make them care about you. And then number two in terms of communication dynamics, you really need to think about how you can make the consumer the hero rather than the brand.
Tom Ollerton 0:17
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative and this is a podcast about the future of marketing. Every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders, and this week is no different. I'm on a call with Travis Gordon, who is senior consumer insights manager at Danone. So Travis, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, and what you do, could you give us a bit of a background.
Travis Gordon 1:18
So currently, I'm the senior insights manager on Silk. So that includes soy milk, almond milk, coconut milk, and most recently, our next milk. I've been with Danone about three years, prior to Silk I have worked on so delicious plant based Frozen is what it's most known for, as well as plant based yogurt. So all the plant based world for the last three years. Prior to that I was at Mars Petcare working on the dry dog food portfolio, including brands like IMC and Pedigree, and prior to that was in a marketing role with Nissan North America working on Sentra, Juke and Quest. And then an insights role before that. And prior to that at a kid's toy company called Kids 2, which is a competitor to Fisher Price working on insights as well as Product Manager.
Tom Ollerton 2:06
Well, it's quite a mixed background and interested in knowing about Mars Petcare. Mars Petcare are an Automated Creative client and a much loved one at that. So yeah, maybe offline, we should talk about that. So what I'm keen to know is in terms of your role as a senior consumer insights manager, like, can you help the audience understand what what your outputs are? What does your role entail? And how do you provide value to the marketing organization?
Travis Gordon 2:30
Yeah, definitely. So in a nutshell, I help the marketing teams make decisions that are oriented around the consumer. So this input could include product research and innovation, as well as advertising and communication tactics, and everywhere in between. And so really focused on a mix of the, what we call the base business, which includes marketing, creative, and communication as well as innovation. So what's the next big, new idea in plant based milk and how we can communicate that and get that across to the consumer.
Tom Ollerton 3:03
So that's a lot of responsibility. And if you're coming to keep track of all these trends, and find all these insights and make these recommendations, there's a chance I guess you can get overwhelmed at time. So what is your approach to overwhelm? How do you make sure that you stay on your game and don't let everything get too much?
Travis Gordon 3:21
Yeah, overwhelm is definitely prevalent. I'm sure that's something a lot of your audience members can relate to in a post COVID world. And so what I really like to do is focus on myself and my own mental energy and my own well being. What that looks like, for me is, you know, a fitness routine, four days a week to really clear that mind and de stress as well as some meditation and some mental health exercises. I really took note in the book Essentialism, by Greg Cowan, who talks about protecting the asset as he calls it, and really focusing on yourself so that you can be your best in all aspects of working life. And so I really think it comes down to taking care of yourself and protecting that asset.
Tom Ollerton 4:14
So tell me about the fitness routine, is it the same every four days?
Travis Gordon 4:18
It varies based on how early the meetings I have. So if I have a very early meeting, I get to work early or work on the rower that we have in our house. If I have a little bit extra time, I'll go to the Rec Center and swim laps, which is very good, both physically and mentally. That silence of the pool and just really being present and focusing on breathing. And really being very mindful of kind of that physical presence has been really beneficial for me.
Tom Ollerton 4:46
And what are the meditation techniques that you use, are you an app person or are you pure self guidance?
Travis Gordon 4:53
I started with an app, Headspace and started to learn some really basic techniques and some Transcendental Meditation. And then I've been able to practice that some on my own without the assistance of the app, which is just reallym can't stress the benefits of that.
Tom Ollerton 5:13
Well, it's really good to know that you've got that as a practice. And that's something you can manage to do all the time. So, moving across onto marketing, I always ask guests, what is your top marketing tip? What's your favorite bit of advice that you find yourself using or sharing most of?
Travis Gordon 5:31
Yeah, I think it's, it's easy in marketers' day to day lives to really focus on the brand and make the assumption that people care about your brand and in reality, you know, people are just trying to live their lives and looking for solutions to benefit themselves. And so the couple things I like to say is like, number one, nobody cares about you, you have to make them care about you know, and then number two, in terms of communication dynamics, you really need to think about how you can make the consumer the hero rather than the brand. And so a good example of that would be, you know, brands telling me, oh, it's the best tasting almond milk, for instance. Consumers don't want to hear that, they want to be led to believe they've made that conclusion themselves. And so that looks more like storytelling, and, you know, ingredients, storytelling and process storytelling around what it is that Silk does uniquely so that they can come to that conclusion on themselves rather than: "Oh, yes, Silk brand, you're telling me your almond milk tastes great? Well, of course you are." And so that dynamic is really about making the consumer the hero not the brand.
Tom Ollerton 6:42
And so who do you think does that really well?
Travis Gordon 6:44
You know, I think Peloton actually comes to, was the first brand that comes to mind, because they're, they're about empowering you to better yourself. And the brand really focuses on that aspirational lifestyle, and that healthy lifestyle as something that improves your life overall, I think fitness companies in general, really focus much on the benefits of a product rather than a product themselves, and thinking about how this product can make your life better, based on the empowerment of you, and that they are a tool to make you better in whatever aspect of your life.
Tom Ollerton 7:21
So how do you think, what's the smart way to balance making the consumer the hero whilst at the same time landing those important points of difference? Because like, the milk example you gave, you know, the fact that it does taste better than competitors' or has these ingredients or these benefits, like those features and the benefits of the product need to be stated, it needs to be in the mind of the consumer at the point of consideration. But yeah, if you're constantly just making the audience the hero, is the danger that you won't deliver that as well. So do you need to balance those two things? What in your view is the best way to do that?
Travis Gordon 7:56
Yeah, I think you definitely need to balance those two things. And I think one of the ways that you do that is looking at what, what are some tiebreakers in the category? What are some differentiators? Or what are some things that you can drive salience and brand salience to you from in a unique differentiated way. And I think a lot of that comes down to some really foundational principles of marketing and things like consistency across messages to create distinctive brand assets, singular singularity and focus of that message and focusing that message on the differentiation category. I think a good example that within plant base is that brands that really went on sustainability and environmentalism and the green aspect of the category in a way that's unique and differentiated is a good way to to break that time. When people are at shelf all they want to know is like does it taste good, is it healthy. But then when they think about a brand love and brand affinity it comes down to what were some of the goods and good things that the brand has done for the world.
Tom Ollerton 9:12
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And so we're gonna move on to your shiny new object now, which is neurological research, which sounds fascinating and I'm embarrassed to say I don't know a great deal about it. So what is neurological research to you Travis and why is that your shiny new object?
Travis Gordon 9:58
Yeah, I think at its core neurological research is a central location test where consumers come in and they get fitted with an ECG skullcap, where basically it reads the reaction of the brand and certain stimulus. I've used this most often with looking at creative, and advertising. And so what you can do with something like that is it measures a baseline of things like, Okay, you show this Silk logo, what part of the brain does that activate and fire against? When Silk is shown? So where's that memory stored? They look at the advertising, the copy, say, Okay, well, this activated the Silk, and therefore, is getting a message and brand resonance. In addition to that, you can look at things like, are they confused? Are they intrigued? Are they activating the memory, all in ways that the consumer doesn't have to say a word, it's kind of kind of sci fi kind of black mirror, but you get this data based on the literal reaction of the brain. So the stimulus rather than people having to post rationalize, or use our system to thinking, so it's really brainstem, it's really at the core of what people think and feel. Because it ties back to even before the point in which they tell you how they think and feel. And that whole field is just so fascinating. Because you get at the truth and the core of what people really truly want. And you can create principles around creative, like, you know, how many frames per second are optimal? What are some general rules of thumb, I don't want to give away all the secrets. But, you know, basically, you create these principles and this framework to inform future creative. And you can really optimize on campaigns in the future without having to do actual research.
Tom Ollerton 12:03
So playing devil's advocate a bit here, how many people can you put through an fMRI to get a significant read on what an audience of millions would think?
Travis Gordon 12:14
So interesting point there. And based on some research that Nielsen did, they took a sample size of around 30 and compared the results to two or 300 people. And they found those results are very consistent in a very small sample size. And the reason being is that your instinctual, natural neurological reaction is more similar than different, then because it goes all the way down to the brainstem, it really gets into like, who we are as human beings, and how we respond to certain stimulus in a way that's, that's more more similar than different.
Tom Ollerton 12:54
So our business spends a lot of time optimizing ads in the moment, because unfortunately, advertising is incredibly context sensitive. So the example I give often is that if you're using McDonald's ad, and you've just watched a documentary about veganism on Netflix, you'll feel different about that than if you've had like three beers, no lunch, right? So the context will change how you feel about it. So how does that get accounted for within this kind of in the lab process?
Travis Gordon 13:24
So the way that I think about that is, there's two strategies there, what you're describing is a media strategy. And that's, that's a whole different can of worms, as opposed to a creative strategy. And so at its core, the lab environment is simulated in the sense that you have people's full attention, they aren't allowed environment by when it comes down to what people see and hear and think in that moment, assuming they're actually paying attention. Those would hold true across contexts, assuming that he to your point, you know, you wouldn't want to show McDonald's ad after a vegan documentary, assuming that you have the right media place, but so like those taking on two separate tactics and strategies, then come together for the most effective campaign.
Tom Ollerton 14:15
But if someone's, I don't know, like thumbing through Tik Tok, and then they've also got the TV on and they happen to see an ad, then that's nothing to do with the media, by the context is that they are on TikTok and the TV ads come on. So how do you account for that?
Travis Gordon 14:30
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, that I don't think that you do, honestly, with neurological research. I think that those contexts are so situationally dependent. That the idea of accounting for all of that it's pretty difficult. You know, we have other tactics, where we look at messaging across social media posts and engagement scores, and they were very sophisticated around things like that to ensure we have thumb stopping content. So yeah, I mean, I guess you don't really, to be transparent. But I don't think that there's an infinite number of situations that can occur that you can't necessarily account for and research. And so what you want to do is at least eliminate the variable of that by having more of a pure research environment.
Tom Ollerton 15:22
So, one thing I'm keen to know if neurological research can support with, so as I understand it, you're getting a really true read on a large audience by 30 people is as good as or accurate as enough as 300 people and presumably 3000 and 3 million, which is amazing. And you're seeing how people respond, is it activating memory, are they confused, intrigued, and all these kinds of things. But how are you able to measure things like intent? Do you have, like, ads that people can click on and go and transact within the system? Or are you looking for purely reactions from the audience, and not a kind of physical response, i.e. a click or a purchase or intent.
Travis Gordon 16:02
There are specific algorithms that take into account multiple metrics within the neurological research that have, I want to say, an 80, or 90%, correlation in market results. And so what the Nielsen neuro team has done is look at the total EEG scores from this neurological research and tie those back to the m&ms and the single source, marketing data, and have found the lift to be highly correlated to the neurological results. So you don't actually look for any action from the consumer at that moment in time. But they've identified markers of action intent, based on the brand resonance, the message resonance, and the EEG scores overall, for those particular spots, they're highly correlated to what happens in the market.
Tom Ollerton 16:54
Genuinely sounds too good to be true, right? Again, to like, look a bit deeper. So you got a machine that can tell me how people respond emotionally to my brand. And the machine can also tell me whether a certain criteria is going to drive a certain amount of uplift, that seems like a done deal to me, what are the shortcomings here? What doesn't this do?
Travis Gordon 17:17
I think you've already called out some of the shortcomings: in the media placement, the contextualization, the fact that this is a study that is done with 100% of your focus and attention, as opposed to what we know that to be the real life experience, people catching glimpses of ads, or maybe listing in the other room or any of those. And so that's where the shortcomings are, I think you need to address those with some foundational understanding of distinctive assets and creating distinctive assets in an audio form or in a branding form. So that partial impressions or half attention impressions are accounted for in that manner.
Tom Ollerton 17:59
And then how does it account for consistent exposure? Right, so I watched the new creative for Dove yesterday that I've found kind of incredibly moving, but I have a long history with Dove. As in I've seen tons of incredible campaigns from those guys. And you've seen them disrupt the category. So I have a feeling about Dove whereas, if I'd just seen that straight off, like my reaction would be different because I wouldn't be recalling any memory or maybe not. So how does this process account for consistent exposure to messaging?
Travis Gordon 18:34
So it does in the form of, for instance, you're probably very familiar with the logo, you're probably very familiar with it as a distinctive asset. And so that is accounted for in those individual scores. So when you think about the effectiveness of the brand, and the branding itself, which is, of course tied to previous exposure, then that is accounted for in the sense that the brand is stored more closely in your memory framework. And so that brand resonance that's measured within the neurological research accounts for that in that it takes less for your brand to activate within those brains.
Tom Ollerton 19:12
Sorry, I'm assuming that this process is expensive. And I know you're not a neorological research sales guy, so you don't have to quote prices. But like, is this available to everyone? Or is this is this something that is only affordable to like the Danones and the P&Gs of this world?
Travis Gordon 19:31
I think it can be available to everyone depending on budget. So when I was at Kids 2, we had a budget that was about the size of one project here at Danone, and that's something that we could have implemented there. So there are companies that are working on the technology to make this more cheap and available. I've had some initial conversations with companies that utilize smartwatch metrics to proxy neurological research. And so with that capability in mind, basically you can do neurological research remotely in a way that's very inexpensive. And it does that by looking at the heart patterns and rhythms that change as someone gets a dose of oxytocin, or serotonin or whatever hormone that may be entirely up to the neurological benefit. I haven't experienced it firsthand, I think it sounds very intriguing and something that you're pursuing.
Tom Ollerton 20:33
Definitely. You'd have like a much longer, larger sample size, as well. And then people would have to, I'm hoping they'd have to opt into that. Otherwise, it'd be like really weird, or just...
Travis Gordon 20:48
Definitely opt into that and definitely shut off when you're not. But when you think about the drivers of costs within the study I've already described, it's the you know, the equipment, the neuroscientists, the central location test, those are all drivers of costs. And as more technological advancement towards neurological research happens, you expect those barriers to get lower and lower. Even just in looking at beyond marketing and human and psychological research. It seems like neurological advancements are taking place and that we're finding a lot of really interesting studies. There's a gentleman by the name of Angier Huberman who has a podcast interview on Tim Ferriss, I would encourage everybody to listen to, it talks a lot about some some neurological dynamics from a psychological perspective. And it seems I'm observing that there seems to be some advancements in that field of research, which is super exciting for me, both professionally and personally,
Tom Ollerton 21:46
Well Travis, I would love to keep on picking your brains about this. But unfortunately, we're at the end of the podcast. So if someone would like to get in touch with you about this, any of the topics we've talked about today, where would you like them to do that? And what makes a killer outreach message to you?
Travis Gordon 22:03
We get so many outreach messages, soliciting sales, it's...
Tom Ollerton 22:08
Well, let's educate our salespeople, what makes a really good message that you respond to?
Travis Gordon 22:16
Concise and demonstrating a unique value proposition. And getting in touch with me via LinkedIn is probably the best way to do that. But in terms of differentiation, you know, we, there's a million research companies out there, they're all kind of saying the same thing. It's like, Oh, we got to get to the core of consumers, it gets to the psychological consumers, like what unique methodologies and approaches do you have, that no one else does. And that's, that's pretty difficult from a salesperson's perspective, to communicate in literally one or two sentences. One thing I'll say not to do, is someone contacted my personal email to solicit business yesterday. And that was so frustrating, I don't think I'll ever use that company. I think we all try to create barriers between our work and personal life, that seemed to cross that barrier in a way that really irritated me.
Tom Ollerton 23:14
Right? Well, whoever did that, stop it. I really enjoyed that. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
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