Episode 286 / Irina Finerman / Creative Marketing Leader
Embracing the Creator Economy in the Marketing Mix
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Any one type of marketing will soon run its course and make audiences feel like they’ve “got it.” This is why, although influencer marketing is growing significantly, not one type of channel should be your focus, says Irina Finerman, our guest on the latest episode of the podcast. Her advice is to create a marketing mix that’s authentic and showcases influencers along any other strategy.
The creator economy is huge and extremely effective at creating genuine connections with consumers. Irina explains why this is still her “shiny new object” despite it no longer being all that new. She also shares examples of her work in roles at Showtime and NBC News where creators were used effectively and in very relevant ways to raise awareness and grow interest in shows organically.
Tune in to also hear how she feels about the use of AI and virtual influencers in data driven marketing, as well as to get her top tips and “worst advice,” too.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Irina Finerman 0:00
Consumers are smart. They understand when they're being marketed to. They see it when it's an ad right in front of them. So it's a delicate balance of making sure you're not doing too much and you're adding that value back to the consumer.
Speaker 0:17
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Tom Ollerton 0:50
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, and this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. It's been my privilege for years to interview some of the most exciting people in the industry, and this week is no different. I'm on a call with Irina Finerman, who's a creative marketing leader at some of the most impressive entertainment companies over the last few years. So Irina, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, could you give us a bit of background?
Irina Finerman 1:24
Sure, yeah, yeah, I've been in marketing for, you know, quite a few years. Most of those years had been within the entertainment TV space. Started my career at MTV, then went over to NBC News and spent a long time there doing short form production. So I was what they called at the time, a digital journalist, multi hyphenate before it was popular, we were producing, editing, writing, filming, our own content for NBC News, digital properties and affiliates. And then I stayed with NBC Universal, but switched over to the entertainment cable side of the business, working at USA Network, where I really pivoted into more of that strategic marketing type of role, doing a lot more digital content development, marketing strategy, social strategy, really, you know, thinking about how to bring our shows to market, and how to continually engage with our fan bases in interactive ways. And then after that, I went over to showtime, where it continued, similar type of work, where we were, again, you know, really trying to figure out how to bring in more subscribers, how to engage our fans and consumers with our shows, with our properties. A lot of that had to do with really understanding our audiences and the characters of our shows, and how do those two things align. And what I did a lot of there, which I'll get to later in the podcast, is we did a lot of work with different brand partners and influencers and creators, and it was a really innovative way to connect with audiences and bring in new audiences to our products and services. And then, most recently, I was at a FinTech doing brand marketing and social there as well, bringing a lot of that creative type of strategic vision that I honed at entertainment companies in elevating the creative at fintech. So it's definitely been a varied type of you know, background for me, and I've always got to do a lot of different things, which is just how I like it. But yeah, I'm excited to be here and excited to talk to you,Tom.
Tom Ollerton 3:18
So in that career, what have been those bad recommendations that you've heard that in retrospect, actually weren't good advice, even though they were given as if it was?
Irina Finerman 3:30
Yeah, I think sometimes what happens in you know, big companies or big teams is people will say, stay in your lane or this is not what you do or your team does here. This is not how we do it here. And to me, I've always worked in small teams where I've had to wear a lot of hats, and I've had to do multiple things, and I've had to cross collaborate with so many different teams that to me, that is not a good way to work. That's not a good way to set up a team. I think good ideas come from anywhere, no matter what your title is, no matter how high up or down you are in the organization, and the more you allow your employees to do that, to bring up an idea, to bring up a campaign strategy that they may be thinking of that isn't technically, quote, unquote, in their lane, the more success you'll have. You know, sometimes it's valuable to have a fresh perspective from an outside, you know, kind of internal outside team you might be so far down working on your own project that you just have tunnel vision and has somebody from another group giving you a fresh perspective really makes you see something in a different way. You know, at the end of the day, especially me, who worked in entertainment for so long, we were all consumers. We were all watching content. We're all watching TV, so somebody's idea, or somebody's, you know, POV on on a campaign tactic was just as valuable, because at the end of the day, they're a consumer going home and, you know, watching something or trying to promote or sell them something, get them to sign up for the product. So to me, I thought that's always been a bit of a debilitating way to work of keeping people very much within certain parameters was very limiting. And I think you know if you're open to collaboration and trying new approaches, if you usually uncover a really interesting take or a better, more efficient way to do something, or again, just that fresh perspective.
Tom Ollerton 5:15
So what is your best bit of advice to do when it comes to data driven marketing. What is that silver bullet, bit of knowledge that you find yourself sharing most often?
Irina Finerman 5:25
Yeah, I think to me, and it's not just about data driven marketing. I think it's just marketing in general is really make sure you have proper context for the data, especially right? Like if you're looking at video views for a post you did, or social engagement, or you see a spike in your email open rate. Dig in deeper to understand, you know, why is this happening? Was it, you know, some sort of holiday or promotion? Was it something that happened culturally in the world of that's why you have the uptick. Same thing, if it's something you know didn't perform well, understand, hey, maybe there was an algorithm change within the social platform, right? Dig into those peaks and valleys, and really understand if it's something you need to triage and you really need to, you know, dig in and say, Hey, this wasn't working. We need to rethink, we need to pivot or optimize if it's working really well, right? But before you start to knee jerk, change your whole strategy, really understand the context of what's going on in your larger campaign and in the larger cultural context of what's happening again, you know, within the digital world, within the real world as well, because sometimes those blips are because of something you did. Those are something, you know, kind of, quote, unquote, on, you know, outside of your control, or affected by other things that are happening within the industry, or, you know, within the culture.
Tom Ollerton 6:44
So we're going to move on now to your shiny new object, which is influencer marketing and the creator economy. So some people will be listening to this, going, this isn't the shiny new object. So I'm curious to know why you've chosen this as your object, and what makes it exciting and relevant for you as a data driven marketer now?
Irina Finerman 7:02
Yeah, and again, definitely not shiny and new for me. I've been working in this space for for quite a while, and using various tactics within within my projects, especially at Showtime. But I think what's interesting to note is I keep seeing more and more studies, more and more articles come out, that it keeps growing, and even the term used to be influencer marketing, more and more I'm seeing it as the creator economy, because it's having such a big impact. I read recently in a in a study, that by the end of this year, it's projected to reach $24 billion which is over, like 13, 14% increase from last year, and it'll keep growing. And I think that's what's really important, is it's shiny and new, because it just continues to expand. And we've even seen our own election here in the US this year was influenced by it. You know, more and more people are saying they're getting their news from social media, from their favorite influencers, their favorite podcasters, than the traditional news outlets. So I think it's definitely an area where you need to pay attention for yourself as a marketer. It's not something that you can continue to ignore. I know there's definitely been companies and, you know, verticals that do it a lot more like CPG, you know, beauty, um, we talked about, uh, TikTok when we were, you know, getting ready for this call. And I'm, you know, I'm definitely on it a lot. My kids are on it a lot. I've definitely been influenced and bought some products here and there. Or I'll go and try to, you know, look something up before I'm buying it, definitely there. But you know, even, you know, YouTube and and x and other, you know, and other platforms continue to see, to see that growth recently, actually, I read visa is actually classifying creators as small businesses. They're actually seeing that value in them, and that is also allowing them to benefit from some of the ways that, you know, as they're classified as owners, it opens up some more financial opportunity for them. Again, back to that creator economy angle, right? They are definitely, you know, setting themselves up for success with certain with these tools, and as a brand and as a marketer, when you work with influencers in the right way, when you work with creators in the right way, it's a really effective way to reach your audience. We used to do that all the time at Showtime. You know, we were entertainment service. We were trying to promote our shows, get get new subscribers, and for us, I think what's really important about this creative economy is making sure you're doing it authentically. That's how you're really going to get that conversion, that consideration, that awareness, whatever part of the funnel you're trying to reach at the end of the day, you know, if you're if you're doing in an authentic way, if you're reaching that audience with a way that aligns with your brand and their and their fan bases. So when we used to start, my team used to start these influencer campaigns. We didn't just randomly say, hey, you know what? This person has a million followers. Let's work with them. We really looked first to go into our own data, understand who is our own audience, or who is our projected kind of target. Target audience. What are their affinities? What do they like to do? What other content do they consume? So we can really build this digital portrait of our target consumer, then we would go to the social platforms and understand, hey, is anyone already organically talking about, you know, either our brand or similar content? Are they, you know, entertainment enthusiasts? Are they watching other premium dramas already? So their fan bases are used to content about, you know, these type of shows, these type of products, and then we would work with them very much in a collaboration. It was always creatively. It was very much, you know, they would take the lead knowing their own formats that worked best, knowing their own franchises that their fans responded to. And, you know, we had a YouTuber create a 17 minute video essay for a show going like deep into the philosophy of billions, because that was something that they already done for other shows. So we weren't going to tell them, you know, what to do. They had a successful format, and they just integrated our content in a really authentic way, you know, or you know, we'd have activations on the ground that we would also invite influencers to to experience the actual show that way and create their own content, right? This is something they were doing to begin with. So it's, it's really all about that authentic connection we even had. I remember, for a smaller show, we worked with a couple of science influencers to talk to explain nuclear fusion. It was called, it was the man who fell to earth. So it was like had some of that science fiction angle. And working with micro influencers, you know, and smaller creators, their fan bases in the comments would be so happy that they had brand deals. It wasn't something that turned them off seeing, you know, hashtag partner, they were saying, hey, good for you. You're getting paid for creating this content, we're so happy for you. So again, you know, seeing that authentic connection, seeing that type of interaction with those audiences, and then having that halo effect on your brand. For us, we were looking at more of that upper funnel. You know, awareness, consideration was very effective. But you know, again, like I said, I see it all the time with a lot of more, you know, consumer brands, Taco Bell recently actually hired a creator to direct their actual commercial, right? So, probably not, you know, not hard for them. Instead of, instead of going out to an agency, they they created, they hired a creator. But what then it also did was it created even more content, because then she went and posted about her whole process, it, you know, connected them with a whole new audience base, usually younger. For us, we were usually trying to reach a little bit of a younger, diverse audience. And, you know, social and these type of platforms is where they were. So it pays off in spades when you do it correctly, when you do it right, and you continue to build those relationships with your target consumers and target audiences.
Tom Ollerton 12:41
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So what technology are you seeing that is changing how brands work with influencers and the creator economy? Because what you, what you, what you've done, is explain beautifully how it should work and could work, and thank you for the very specific examples as well. They're lovely. You've got a ton of talent out there, and you've got lots of brands, and they all want to get in front of the right talent. What are the techniques and tools and technology the brands can leverage to make sure they're they're working with the right folk when they need to be working with upwards of 200 300 400 different people, and which is a lot of work to set that up, right?
Irina Finerman 14:02
Yeah, there's definitely quite a few influencer platforms out there that really help you understand the deep metrics, right? The data when you're starting, like I said, when you're starting off to trying to understand who would align really well with your campaigns, it'll show you things like, you know, their core demos, their male female split, their geographic location. If you're trying to find a global influencer, or somebody that has global reach, right? You get their engagement rates, their video rates, click through rates, if it's a product so things like that, where either from the platform themselves, that do have actual tools to find creators themselves, or oftentimes you're working with specific influencer platforms, or even in the case where you're working directly with the Creator or their reps or their agents, they're pulling that data for you, and that's really important to look into that, because at the end of the day, for you to understand if you're getting our if you're going to get the ROI right on your proposed campaign, you want to make sure you're reaching that audience that you're targeting right. You want to make sure that you. Got the best chance to align with those goals and with that audience. So digging into their numbers and seeing how they intersect with your own targets, right your own KPIs that you've set for your brand is really important.
Tom Ollerton 14:11
And what's your view about the development of virtual influencers? So I was exposed to that space around the time that we set up automated creative, which is kind of seven years ago, and you see it mentioned from time to time, like, how do you see that space developing?
Irina Finerman 15:31
Yeah, I definitely started to see a bit more. You know, AI creative, and I think it's still pretty experimental, still really nascent. I think I'm curious to see where it goes, because I do feel like my earlier point about authenticity that's still missing there where, yes, you can probably, you know, create the actual visual of the person you want and get them to do what you want. What's really engaging about the creators and why fans follow them is their tone, their style, right? Usually it's like quirky things they do, or their off beat humor, or, you know, they're doing it with their friends or their family or whatnot. So I'm curious to see how that continues to develop, because I think as like a single person trying to sell you something straight to camera that can kind of, you know, probably be achieved by these AI creators, but I think that human authenticity, that connection, right? That that goes down to why we engage with people on social media and these type of creators. To me, that's not there yet, and I don't know if it will be again, it's really that human spark, right? That's even when we're playing with our AI tools and getting it to write copy for us, oftentimes, you still have to finesse it. It's still missing that spark. So I'm curious to see, you know, how it continues to develop. But I think right now, it's really more about, like you said, you know, it helps with some efficiency, right? It probably helps. It definitely helps with targeting. If you're also surrounding your campaigns with media targeting and ad targeting, or, you know, creating a couple of different versions of a paid ad or a social ad I've done that, you know, or emails to create customization, or maybe even personalization, right? It has the capacity to do that. But to a degree, I think the type of content I'm speaking about really right now, I haven't seen done well with AI creators or virtual influencers.
Tom Ollerton 17:24
So, so where does this all go? Right? So I have this, like, vague theory that it's really easy to spot an ad, right? You know, because there's a there's a series of tropes that just always show up in ads, right? There's a tone, there's a presentation of a that makes an ad so easy to spot, but really influencer content that is promoting a product is an ad, but it just because it's so recent in terms of the history of advertising that it's, it's it's a lot harder for a lot of people, myself included, to even see it as an ad. So even if I'm working, a creator says I'm working with this brand, or I'm promoting this product or or if it's more passive than that, it's still an ad, however you want to cut it, influencer or authentic or not. And at some point, in the same way that you could argue that Gen Z are tiring of ads, that we will also tire of influencer work. So where does, where does it go next? Like, do you think it's like 90% of advertising will be influencers, and they'll be just sort of 10% traditional. But where do we go? Where do we go when human nature takes over and goes, Oh, really? Another one? Because it will happen.
Irina Finerman 18:36
Yeah, I think, I think with any type of marketing tactic, when it's all in on one type of, you know, ad format. That's when you start to get turned off. It needs to be part of your campaign strategy, right? It needs to be part of your media mix. Again, in the US, it's you have to put your FTC disclosures. You have to, you know, you have your hashtag, ad span, con partner, whatever have what have you that your legal team will approve. So, you know, consumers are smart. They understand when they're being marketed to, they see it when it's an ad right in front of them. But if the content is valuable to them, right? If you're adding value, whether that's entertaining, whether you're showing, you know, it's a review of a product, or it's, again, you know, like I mentioned, it's a creator who's actually just part of the process. That's where it continues to be valuable, and it just continues to be part of your mix. I don't think TV advertising, digital advertising will go away. It has to be there, and it's different ways to reach different audiences, right? Yes, right now, with influencers and creators, you definitely go younger, and obviously, you know, the ones that are growing up with it, the Gen Z's and the alphas are the digital natives will continue to understand that as a tactic, but then, you know, I'm sure some other thing will come up. So I think it all just needs to be part of your mix to reach the audience. You know, it takes, usually at least what, like five to eight different, you know, touch points for somebody to actually purchase or interact with your brand, right? And it can. It all be the same thing, if, like, when I'm watching a streaming service that has ads, and I get the same ad five times, that doesn't make me more likely to buy it, but I'll watch it there, and then it'll come up and paid social, and then it'll come up somewhere else, and you start to, you know, you start to see it surround yourself in various formats. And that's when it that brand recall helps a little bit, and it and it starts to actually stick in more where, I think if it's all in on one channel, you start to get turned off, because it's like, okay, I get it. I get the point. Like you said, right? Too much. It's too much. So it's a delicate balance of making sure you're not doing too much and you're adding that value back to the consumer.
Tom Ollerton 20:38
So unfortunately, Irina, we are at the end of the podcast. I would love to carry on talking about this, but I have to draw the line somewhere. So if someone wanted to get in touch with you about the influencer marketing and the creator economy, or anything else that you've talked about today, where is a good place and what makes a really good outreach message to you that you'll reply to?
Irina Finerman 20:58
yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best. It's Irina Finerman, my full name there, and it's probably been said before, but it's really making sure the message is relevant. You probably like me. I've gotten so many, you know, cold call emails that are completely irrelevant to what you do or the type of content you you publish, where, if somebody just takes five minutes to skim my LinkedIn profile and see the kind of work I've done and the kind of places I worked at, and then crafts a message that is actually relevant to something that I would be interested in, or a way to have the conversation. And again, back to that authenticity, right? Don't just kind of self tell, self sell, tell me a little bit about you know yourself, or what you're looking for, why you want to talk to me in an interesting way, and especially if you make that little personal connection of showing me Hey, you did a little bit of homework before you reached out to me. That's really what's going to go a long way, which, again, I think is true for most of us.
Tom Ollerton 21:51
Irina, thank you so much for your time.
Irina Finerman 21:53
Yes, thank you.
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