Episode 239 / Giovanni Pupo / LIPTON / Head of E-Commerce Media Europe
Why ChatGPT Is A Good Marketing Assistant
Giovanni Pupo thinks ChatGPT is that smart, underpaid marketing assistant everyone’s always wanted. You can train it to do great things, as long as you’re prepared to supervise and check its work. After all, you need to know how to drive the machine yourself before using its outputs.
As the Head of E-Commerce Media Europe at LIPTON, Gio looks after ROAS across the continent. He uses ChatGPT for brainstorming and copywriting, but he also thinks there are reasons not to trust it too much. Here are his reasons for picking it as his Shiny New Object.
Finding patterns and new ideas
ChatGPT is a great “second pair of eyes” for copywriting or idea generation, according to Gio. He doesn’t trust it completely, of course. But, often, when looking for patterns or coming up with content, it’s useful to present your findings to ChatGPT and ask it to tell you what you’re missing. Out of 5 answers, one may be worth a deep dive and could lead to a new and useful idea.
When it comes to data driven marketing, Gio thinks that ChatGPT’s data analysis is “disastrous.” It may look good at first glance, but 80% can be wrong and you wouldn’t know it if you didn’t have any knowledge of the field. So, caution is advisable for these types of work.
Why we still need a human touch
ChatGPT is changing the way we search and also the way we’re creating. Creativity, however, requires a human touch. As Gio puts it: “in order to drive the machine you have to know how to do the work yourself.” This way, you can criticise the output and guide it for better results.
In the future, the increased use of AI to create content faster and cheaper will ultimately work in favour of those who are experts in their field: “In a world where it’s easier to fake it, it will be much harder to make it.”
Listen to Gio’s top tips for work/life balance, his advice on the importance of reading data for marketers, and the way he works with ChatGPT, in the full episode.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Giovanni Pupo 0:00
People's attention span today is 10 seconds. So make sure you deliver the message in 10 seconds tell the story behind those numbers because eventually people don't care about the numbers. People only care about the story behind it. The secret is being able to read numbers, but at the same time being able to be creative while telling your story.
Tom Ollerton 0:17
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of the creative effectiveness platform, automated creative and every week, I get the absolute privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders, and this week is no different. I am on a call with Gio Pupo, who is head of E commerce media across Europe for Lipton teas and infusions. So Gio, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, can you give us a bit of background?
Giovanni Pupo 0:53
Thank you, Tom. Hi, everyone. My name is Gio, as you can tell from my British accent I'm from Italy. But yeah, I actually live and work in London, where I yeah, I currently lead ecom media for Europe. So if ROAS goes down, it's my fault. But yeah, I started my career in media agencies. And then I moved client side. So I've seen both sides of it. At the same time I work with universities, I love mentoring students, about marketing, specifically about like life in general. And yeah, I've also started my own website, it's called PPC marketing it and essentially the digital marketing book that, you know, is is online, so it never gets old. Differently from me that yeah, I get old sometimes.
Tom Ollerton 1:44
We were introduced by the lovely people at performance marketing world. So can you talk about your involvement in their event?
Giovanni Pupo 1:52
Yeah. So I, yeah, they've been very nice to introduce. Yeah, they introduced us. Yeah, we met at the previous event, which was in November end of November last year. And I will be also speaking at the new event unlocked, which it will be the fifth and the sixth of march in London. So I will be part of two panels. And then I will also do a keynote of like, 50 minutes about ecom. So yeah, can't wait.
Tom Ollerton 2:25
Brilliant. So yeah, that's performance marketing world unlocked.com. And brands go free. So there you go. Easy peasy. And your three chances to catch up, which I would suggest thank you for the introduction. So what I'm keen to ask you is looking back in the last five years or so, which new belief or behavior has improved the quality of your work life?
Giovanni Pupo 2:46
Yeah, that is a good question. I think taking things not too seriously, I think improved my work life balance, because, you know, sometimes we forget that we're not saving lives. I mean, of course we do sometimes. But you know, if you're not a doctor, you work in marketing, of course, you know, your goal is to improve people life, right? Selling, you know, what they need, or sometimes making them think that they need something that they don't really need. Either way, I feel like, yeah, taking things not too seriously being, you know, having fun while doing it, I think improves the quality of the outcome, right? So, you know, being a nice person first, and then you know, your work outcome will follow.
Tom Ollerton 3:33
So two things on that, how did you arrive at that realization to not take it too seriously, because you said in your intro that if ROAS is going in the wrong direction, then it's your fault, right? And that's gonna be stressful at a large business with a large spend, so surely can't show up to that meeting going: Hey, guys, don't take it seriously. We're not saving lives here. So how did you get to that view? And how would you balance that in on those days when it does get really stressful?
Giovanni Pupo 3:55
Yeah, I will say short answer - a lot of therapy. So you know, but long answer: I think it's just like doing your best, right? So I feel like Istudy a lot. This is an industry where you need to study a lot. It's not like it's not like 20 years, 30 years ago, where you know, you studied the four P's of marketing, you got some experience, and you keep doing the same thing for years, right? You need to keep studying, you need to get a new best practice, because I always say in the digital marketing world, there is no really right and wrong. Of course, there are really wrong things. Of course, there are right things, but most of it is best practice, right? So you know, I feel like I study a lot. I give myself updated. I work with very smart people. So I make sure that I listen to the others as well. And yeah, I you know, I think the good the good thing about our job is that we have data right? The main difference between traditional marketing and digital marketing is measurement: today you can measure. So if you measure the right things, you understand the reason why things are working. And the reason why things are not working right. So of course I don't I don't take it easy. I work hard. But at the same time, if you can understand why ROAS goes down, you can make it go up, right? So you can always find an explanation. So I think, you know, data is giving me the power to. Yeah, take it easy.
Tom Ollerton 5:29
Thank you for being so open about therapy. There's not many people on this podcast have said that they've you know, been on that journey, can you talk any more about that? Were you taking work too seriously? Were you solving a problem with therapy because of work? Because it was getting too much. And and through that process? Like, what was your breakthrough to come to this mindset? Of having the fun in it? If you feel comfortable answering that?
Giovanni Pupo 5:53
Yeah, that's fine. It's fine. Yeah, no, I feel like therapy is not a solution. Like, usually people think: Okay, I have a problem. I go to therapy, right? Well, I think therapy is a method, right? I think therapy is actually a way to analyzing things, right. And I feel everyone should go to therapy, not to fix their problems. Because if you go to a proper therapist is not fixing your problems, is giving you a language, to understand yourself a little bit better, to read your feelings, to find a way to handle and digest, you know, some emotions. And yeah, so it's not just about work. It's about life. I, when I talk about work, I, I mean life, because I think, you know, companies are made of people. And you know, you need to have a relationship with your manager, you need to have a relationship with your peers, it is the same relationship you need to have with your father or your mother or your with your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, we are friends. So it's not, it's not different at all. So I feel like everyone should go to therapy, just because I feel like when you are in a toxic environment, and corporates can be very toxic, you understand that probably those people are not going to therapy, right? So yeah, honestly, is not that you will get promoted. If you go to therapy, you don't get promoted. If you don't, it's mostly like, you live a better life. And yeah, life, fortunately, and unfortunately, it's also about working, right. So if you can make it fun and nice at the same time is you will have a better journey. Right?
Tom Ollerton 7:35
Yeah. And that's, you spoke to a new thought when you were saying that, which is to quote your words, but you don't need to have a problem to go to therapy, right? You just the process of having a third party objectively observe what's going on for an emotional and life perspective is not only healing, but can be proactive. And this made me think, why don't we do that at work that why don't we have like, like, almost preventative therapy, right? Because you say we all disagree with each other all the time in work, there's, there is toxicity, no matter where you work, and if everyone had this facility to talk about their feelings, and the things that were chewing them up, maybe work could be a much better thing. So I hadn't considered it in those terms. So it's a lovely idea.
Giovanni Pupo 8:17
Yeah, no, exactly. I feel like, you know, working for a company that allow you to, you know, they usually say men don't cry, right?
Tom Ollerton 8:26
Not in the north of England, that is for sure.
Giovanni Pupo 8:29
Yeah, yeah. But you, you know what I mean? Right. So I feel like, of course, I think that challenges in corporates, I mean, companies spend a lot of money and time making, you know, people think that they are not working, they're a family, let's be honest, you are not family, you're working together, you're there for a reason. So it's good to also make friends in the meantime. But, you know, it's not family. But I feel like if people work on their self a little bit more, then it's easier to have a welcoming environment, it's easier to have, you know, a good place to live and work. Because at the end of the day, I think being professional, in my opinion, is not just about knowing the latest on Google ads, or you know, paid media or digital marketing is actually being able to split your, your personal, you know, feelings with your professional, you know, objective, so being able to being a nice person while at the same time achieving your goals. Right. So, I think it's, it's called work life balance. Right. But I think, in my opinion, we can sum it up and call it Life Balance, you know, being balanced during your journey. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 9:51
But, you know, we've got to get back onto data driven marketing, unfortunately. Thanks for exploring that side.
Giovanni Pupo 9:57
It's not like a philosophy podcast?
Tom Ollerton 9:59
No, it's not. Maybe it is now.
Anyway, right, so what is your best advice to become a better data driven marketer? What is your kind of one thing? If someone does it, they're gonna upgrade themselves?
Giovanni Pupo 10:17
Yeah. As the Word says, being able to read data, I think is key, because of course, there is I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding when people talk about marketing. Of course, there is a lot of creativity in place. But also depends, because, as I mentioned, digital marketing is way different than traditional because you got more data. So you measure measuring is power. If you think about it in the past, the CMO less power than today, right? Because today you call it performance marketing, why you call it performance marketing, because you're actually measuring the performance, right? So if you spend millions, to have like a billboard in London, like in Oxford Circus 20 years ago, you couldn't really measure what was the impact of that? Right. So in a crisis, the first thing they're gonna cut is that billboard, right? Where, today, if you spend 1 million on YouTube, or Google or Tik Tok, wherever you can actually measure, not only how many people seen that video or image or whatever, but you also can measure what was the behavior afterwards? How many people bought your product based on that, right? So measuring is power. And I think the key of success there is understanding that, of course, you're still creative because behind the click, there is always a human being. But still, you need to be able to read the data, right? And of course, you don't need to be like a data analyst, right. But you still need to be able to use Excel to go through numbers and understand if there is, you know, a trend, if there is a link, if you know there is a correlation between something. And if you are able to do that, and you translate that into creativity, then you'll find a solution. So I think the secret is being able to read numbers, but at the same time being able to be creative while telling your story.
Tom Ollerton 12:18
So how do you do that? So I guess interpreting data for someone who isn't that great at it, there's a bunch of things that you could do courses, so on and so forth. It's, it's numerical. And yes, there's going to be tangential thinking to a degree. But that is a skill that you could learn. Being creative, that's harder, you know, there's a gazillion different ways of being creative. And they're also two very different parts of the brain. Or let's it might just be a metaphor, but can often require a different type of thinking a different type of person. And certainly my experience of education in the late 80s. And 90s was you were either a creative person or you were a data person, essentially, Were you good at Sciences, or were you good at art, and you were sort of pushed down one path. So you get people who are my age, and they go, Oh, well, I'm no good at maths. But it's my view that you just haven't done enough maths right. Equally some people get I'm not creative, but you just haven't done enough creative stuff. You haven't built that muscle. So might people might be educated a little differently now, I hope, so what if someone listens to this podcast is like, well, I get that, I love all that stuff. I'm just not a creative person or vice versa. How do you get someone to be a double sided coin?
Giovanni Pupo 13:24
That is a great point, Tom. I believe in talent, I believe that some people are more creative, and some people are more analytical 100%. But then I also believe that you can train the other part, right? So if you were naturally a creative person, but you also able to train your analytical part, you become a better human being at the same time, of course, a better, you know, professional. So, I give you an example. Right? I met a lot of artists, I have a few friends, they are musicians, they are painters, they're clearly very creative, right? But you can tell they're missing the analytical part because they need a manager, like a friend of mine, you know, then you you don't know how to you can book your shows, you can find new venues. So this is clearly a lack of analytical power, right? Where if you if you work hard on that on that part, then you can actually become a better individual. Right. So I feel like the secret is understanding your gaps and working hard on those gaps. Right. This is usually the metaphor between Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi right. They say Messi is naturally more talented than Cristiano Ronaldo. But in the long run Cristiano Ronaldo wins because he trains harder, right? So yeah, I feel like I think my secret was I feel like I'm more creative than analytical. And then I started working in marketing because I thought it was like Mad Men, you know, like the TV show. And then I realized that digital marketing is not really is not really that creative. I mean, of course you can you still create it, but you need to play with a lot of numbers. And and, you know, the lucky part was that when I went high school, I went to the most analytical High School in Italy. So I did a lot of math, I did a lot of physics. And I was very analytical. And I wasn't, I wasn't the best, you know, I was actually in the middle, you know, but then that gave me the basics, to then be analytical in the marketing world. And I think that's the secret. So when I see numbers, I don't get scared. I like them. Right? Because I got used to it. I got comfortable with that. So yeah, I think the secret is always training the other side. And yet, and being able to tell a story. So I also teach at university right, one of my courses actually, media reporting, and most of the time, the students that are coming in the marketing course, those are students that come from philosophy, they're coming from communication, they're coming from political science, and clearly those people are not very analytical, right? Otherwise they they will have been in other courses, right? But then what I told them I said, Look, guys, just learn these three basic formulas on Excel. And being able to tell a story in PowerPoint, it's even better right? So you know, people attention span today's 10 seconds, so make sure you deliver the message in 10 seconds tell a story behind those numbers. Because eventually people don't care about the numbers people only care about the story behind it. So be able to tell a story is also being creative, right?
Tom Ollerton 16:38
Yeah, using story as the bridge between those two things. That's the key, isn't it? Yeah, the data provides the opportunity for the story. But if you haven't got the skills to turn the story into a thing that gets the result you want then then it's redundant, that's beautifully put.
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MADfest whether it's live in London are streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from MADfest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is a bit broad, but it's ChatGPT. We talked about ChatGPT on the show before, but you've chosen it as your shiny object. So why and specifically, what about ChatGPT you want to talk about today?
Giovanni Pupo 17:49
Yeah, I mean, I will define ChatGPT as the super smart and underpaid assistant that everyone wanted, right? Because it's super smart. If you know how to prompt it. If you know how to ask the right questions, it's super smart. But at the same time, it never asks you for a promotion. Right? So you know, it's only $20 per month. So and it's great. I love it. I use it every day, I use it to improve my writing. Of course, I'm no native speaker. So you know, my writing needs improvement. To be honest, I use it in Italian as well. So it's not an excuse. I use it to brainstorm a lot. So if I need to build a strategy, I got my strategy. I've got my experience, I got my readings. But at the same time, I always ask ChatGPT to challenge me as well. Use it to improve copywriting. Use it for data analysis as well. So you know, I build a table, I find the trend but the same time ask ChatGPT to tell me, what is it towards? Right? So I'm making sure to kind of use it as a challenge to be honest, you know, as a second pair of eyes. And if you know how to ask the right question, you get the best answer. So yeah, honestly, I've been using it for a year now, it improved my life a lot. But at the same time, I also try to keep control, right? Because I always says, has the calculator made us forget the basic math right? At the same time that made us go to the moon, right? So I feel like of course it will make us kind of forget some basic logic, you know, like coming up with like a story or like an email or something like that. Clearly writing an email for me in five years will be much harder than writing it today. Right? But at the same time I will be able to write more emails and being able to get in touch with more people and eventually go to the moon right. So yeah, this is my take on on that.
Tom Ollerton 19:56
So help me understand the strategy bit, the challenging bit, because that resonates with my experience, right? So the way that automated creative see AI is that everyone is using it to do the same thing that they did anyway, faster and cheaper, right? But we want to use it to make it better. What can you do now that you've got the stuff that you couldn't do before, and I think that people are going, Oh, I can write an email quicker, or I can do this thing faster. Or I can get that I don't need to outsource that. I can just do that myself. And I can do it cheaper. But in reality, the leaps that I've been able to take with it, or when I'm doing the strategic thing, or anything, you nailed it. Exactly. You were like, challenge me, like I come up with an idea or a concept or a thing or a strategy or approach and I put it in ChatGPT: What am I missing here? What am I doing wrong? Be aggressive, be weird, be tangential, and it'll come back. And it'll suggest 10 Things neither of which are terrible. One is like, I hadn't thought about that. And what I love it for is its ability to spot things that aren't there. As opposed to like, you know, can you add an extra paragraph to this email to make it sound more professional? So yeah, just how do you use it to challenge yourself? And how do you use it to think more strategically?
Giovanni Pupo 21:03
Yeah, it's a second pair of eyes. Right? So I do my work anyway. And then I ask ChatGPT, can you review that, let me know if I'm missing anything? Or like, like to give you a practical example, right? I see ROAS on Amazon going down. And I'm like, why this is happening, right. And clearly, CPC is going up year on year. So it means that the industry got more expensive, simply right? And probably ROAS is going down as well, because you know, industry is getting more expensive. And the average order value of people buying tea online is lower. So people are spending less, probably because of the you know, crisis or you know, maybe seasonality as well, like, for example, Italy had a warmer winter this year compared to last year. So this is one of the reasons why Q4, for example, sales could have been going down, right. But at the same time, I can also ask ChatGPT, look, I realized that I got these three reasons why ROAS went down in Italy, for example. Can you find any other reason why? And he might give me other five reasons, which four of them are useless, but maybe one of them is true. So you know, it's just a second pair of eyes.
Tom Ollerton 22:23
So how do you see it playing out moving forward? Becuase my experience is, I'm finding myself at least touching chat GPT on most things now, not like every email or like every meeting, my reflex is to go, right? I'm gonna go and do this thing. Why don't I just see what comes back? Because you can't really do that with a search engine, well you can but it just takes you forever, right? But what new applications or newer applications of that platform are you using? Or think there might be some green shoots or some possibility there?
Giovanni Pupo 22:55
I mean, of course, is a very broad topic. And I will talk for hours, 100 percent, as you said, a change the search engine world, right, because I used to search on Google. Now I feel you remember, when you search Google, you could also put, I feel lucky and it will go straight to the website instead of you know, giving you 10 results. I feel like now everyone is feeling lucky, right? Like, it will probably change like you need if you're looking for I don't know, Nike running shoes, black, you already know the model and everything, then you're just looking for the cheapest price in the UK, then, of course, now you searching on Google, and comparing different prices and websites, where you can simply ask Chat GPT, look, find the cheapest website, you know, so of course, then the key then is the user has a shorter journey. What about the marketer? How can you affect that I saw I think the new the new thing will be how can we make sure that charge up the prefer me than other websites? So this is a challenge. This is an opportunity, but it's a topic, right? So it's definitely changing the way people are retrieving the informations. So search engine are changing. But at the same time, I feel like it's changing the way of being creative as well, right? I feel we will always need the human touch. In the automation world, you always need an human touch because in order to drive the machine, you know how to do it first. So you know, it's like, it's like leaving a restaurant of 10 people cooking. If you know how to cook yourself. It's easier to lead that 10 people cooking. If you don't, it's very hard to understand if they're doing a good job or not, you know, so I think knowledge is key. We need to know how to draw Have the car before letting other people driving it. This is the only way you can judge them. Right?
Tom Ollerton 25:06
That's really interesting, isn't it? I found that when I have deeper knowledge in an area, and then I asked Chat GPT to perform a task where my knowledge is deep, it comes back. And you're like, This is nonsense. Whereas in an area that I don't know anything about, like wedding planning, for example, I could take, I'll plan my wedding in the north of England on the 15th of January, and it would crank out a whole wedding plan. And I'll be like, Oh, brilliant. That's that done. But I'm sure a wedding planner will be like, that's a disaster. Because it's exactly it because it's, it's an it's an average approach to it.
Giovanni Pupo 25:35
It's the same thing for a trip for trip planning. Sorry to interrupt, like I love traveling. And I was planning my trips, I always plan my trips by myself. Then once I asked Chat GPT I was going to Japan and I asked it, can you plan the same trip, you know, with the day the with this time with this budget, and he did a disaster? Like, immediately, it looked like a good piece of work. But then when you deep dive and you have experience, it's a disaster, right? So it feels, I feel like we need to know what we're talking about before giving it to someone else. But it's the key of being a good manager, right? Like proper managers are people that know how to do it first. And then they ask you to do it. Where the worst one or the one that don't know how to do it. They pretend you know the famous phrase, fake it until you make it right. So I feel like in a world where it's easier to fake it, it will be much harder to make it
Tom Ollerton 26:32
Go into that a bit more. That's an interesting one. In a world where it's easy to fake it, it will be harder to make it. What do you mean? I think I understand that.
Giovanni Pupo 26:41
Yeah, because, I can elaborate a little bit more is, as you said, it's today, everyone can be a wedding planner, right? Because you ask ChatGPT and it will plan it for you. So everyone can fake it. But then the people that can actually make a good plan will be will be less and will be more important as well, right? So yeah, I feel like you will have more quantity as well buy, you need more quality, to make the difference.
Tom Ollerton 27:16
So bringing it all back to data driven marketing. So you've talked about how you use it as an extra pair of eyes, use it to query data, use it to look at events that are wider than your data set to help give context to your data set. What are the key things that data driven marketers should be using chat GPT for outside of those things like that we haven't mentioned yet?
Giovanni Pupo 27:39
I think it's mostly like finding reasons behind so it's actually getting the extra pair of eyes. Because if then if you look at it, right ChatGPT is good in terms of live writing is good in terms of like, sometimes being creative, but it's a disaster when analyzing data. So if you give it a table 80% of the analysis is wrong. So like my students they do in the media reporting class, I asked them to analyze, like, meta ads, plus campaign report, right? And then I asked them to build a PCI post campaign analysis on PowerPoint. They did the job. And then I asked them, look, now let's use ChatGPT to analyze these data and tell us a story. Like for example, the best performing audience the best performing creatives. And 80% of the analysis was wrong. But only after the course. And only after taking the class only after doing it themselves. First, they realized that 80% of the information were wrong, where if they didn't take the class, and they were like look, I don't need to analyze it myself. First, I just give it to chargeability they will never notice that right? They will never notice that I was wrong. So I think the key is asking ChatGPT for the extra mile for the reason that you didn't think about it first, right? So it will be like aI have noticed that this audience is performing better than the other audience because of these five reasons. By the way, is there any other reason you're thinking about that I haven't. And he might give you other reasons and maybe one of this makes sense. And then you can deep dive and start analyzing yourself so Yeah, indeed we moving from you know the industry is I think is moving from measuring to predicting right because today measuring is are the cookieless iOS simply people being more aware of sharing the information right so of course first party data is becoming key is becoming more reliable also because second party and third party are you know, probably they always been a little bit of a scam but you know, People always been using it. Now, it's going to prediction instead, right? It's like, okay, if people before buying Lipton tea, they go to Italy, and then they take a plane, and then they have pizza, and then they say hi to their best friend, then the fourth thing they're gonna do is buying tea. So why not showing the message when they say hi to their friend, because I know that the next step will be buying tea, right? So it's actually prediction. And I think this will be the future. And I think this will be the key for for for us, because at the moment, we're talking about data driven by in order to get data you need to track. And now tracking is getting harder. Right. So I feel like getting the right data, it's hard, but then being able to read it, it's harder. But then using data is key is key, right? A lot of people talk about data driven marketing, but still a lot of people struggle to find the right KPI you will be you will be impressed to see a lot of people launching an awareness campaign and talking about CPC like it doesn't make sense, right? So simply getting back to the basics and understand that you need to find the right KPI for the right objective. It's it's the most important bit for now, I guess.
Tom Ollerton 31:19
And I think that is a beautiful place to leave it. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your vision and your very practical advice. I've certainly learned a lot and will be looking at my own job in a different way. So thank you so much for that Gio. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, where can they do that? And crucially, if someone is gonna write to you what makes you reply?
Giovanni Pupo 31:42
Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to reply to anyone, mostly like people that want to exchange ideas. I'm also launching my youtube channel next month, it's called a glass of marketing with Gio. So essentially, I'm gonna have a glass of wine while talking about marketing and life in general all set. Also, because wine makes you talk about life more than marketing anyway. And yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Giovanni Pupo, you can find my website PPC marketing it. And yeah, I will see you around. I will be at the performance marketing world event in March 5 and sixth of March. So I will see you guys there.
Tom Ollerton 32:27
Gio, thank you so much for your time.
Giovanni Pupo 32:29
Thank you.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.