Episode 235 / Cate McVeigh / Mars / European Senior Marketing Analytics Manager
Tapping Into the Potential of Neurodiversity
Neurodiverse people bring a different perspective and way of working to marketing departments and organisations as a whole. But, there’s still some stigma attached to talking about this openly and it’s not as obvious how brands can tap into their potential, according to Cate McVeigh, European Senior Marketing Analytics Manager at Mars.
The reason Cate has chosen neurodiversity as her Shiny New Object is that there is a shift going on in the media around ADHD and diversity from this point of view. There are also lots of marketing and advertising professionals that are neuro diverse - but may don’t talk about it openly. In her view, it can be a superpower.
ADHD as a superpower
Working to deadlines and chunking projects to giver her direction makes Cate perform the best. On the podcast, she tells us why “deadlines are like a motor sitting underneath [her]” making her extremely efficient. To unlock this power, she has learnt that she needs to be transparent with her colleagues and explain what makes her productive and happy in the workplace.
The importance of psychological safety
ADHD and neurodiversity are not as “new” as they once were, but, unfortunately, there is still a degree of stigma or misunderstanding linked to them. This is why Cate thinks it’s important that workplaces and leaders create a climate of psychological safety, where people can not only share their condition, but also discuss freely how other can work with them and make the most of their talents.
Tune in to the full episode to learn more about the link between neurodiversity and marketing performance, plus get Cate’s top data driven marketing tip.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Cate McVeigh 0:00
Whatever worked a year ago, don't depend on it work in in the same way today, analytics people had to get really scrappy really quick and it's not gonna go backwards, it's gonna keep going.
Tom Ollerton 0:15
This holiday season marketers are facing their biggest decisions to the point of maximum pressure, delivery fatigue and budget crunch are real and it's leading to complacency around creative effectiveness in digital marketing and that could make or break campaigns. So what can you do about it? Well, you should read the automated creative white paper called compounding creative and urgent q4 Wake up call. So you can get this on this bitly link which is Bitly forward slash q4 Xmas 2023. So that is B I T dot L y that's lowercase and forward slash capital Q, number four, capital X capital M, capital A capital S and then 23. Enjoy.
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness, our tech platform. But today we are doing a podcast that regularly interviews industry leaders about their journey and their vision for the future of the industry. I'm on a call with Cate McVeigh who is European Senior Marketing Analytics manager at Mars. Kate, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do. Could you give the audience a bit of background? Yeah,
Cate McVeigh 1:30
Yeah, hi, Tom. So a wee bit of background about me, I started in marketing and started a marketing degree focused on creative that was very much where my head was at, but I won't say how old I am. But if you go far enough back when did a start it to be a wee bit more interest in advertising, started to get into that space, and have kind of just played with different roles, different parts of the industry over the last kind of 16-17 years. So analytics, product management, media planning, have done agency side have done platform side with TikTok, I've done brand side in a few places. So I am sitting as a little bit of an unusual person with a bit of a varied background. But yet still with the love of advertising at the heart of it.
Tom Ollerton 2:21
So you're basically a nightmare in any meeting, right? You go: Well, when I was at TikTok, when I was at...
Cate McVeigh 2:28
Yeah, I think it's one of those ones where it's like, you know, if we can't get everyone else in the call, maybe Cate can wear a few different hats for everyone else.
Tom Ollerton 2:39
In that kind of patchwork quilt of a career, what has been the best investment of your own time, your own energy or your money in your career?
Cate McVeigh 2:47
Yeah, I mean, I think it probably kind of plays into that. But I would say taking the time and the energy to keep learning something new. So I really enjoy not having the same day over and over again, just to keep my mind going more than anything else. But putting in the energy to learn new skills, because the constant shift of what we've got within the industry right now. And even you know, it has no signs of slowing down, taking a bit of time at the evenings and weekends, learning additional things, spending time with other stakeholders that you maybe wouldn't have normally thought about, I think will will make you better at your current job. But also, it's just going to open up a lot more different paths. And kind of give you just maybe a slightly different set of experiences or perspective than you're used to. So take the time to do it at any age, pick up a coding textbook, go and sit with a creative team, whatever it needs to be to just, you know, get you out of your comfort zone.
Tom Ollerton 3:48
So how do you decide what to learn? Or are you just like, "oh I quite fancy learning how to write copy or code"? Or do you have like a kind of the specific set of things that you want to learn over time?
Cate McVeigh 4:00
I think it comes from a few different places. So sometimes it'll be a meeting that I wasn't expecting was going to be quite as interesting as it was. And you know, it'll maybe spur something off in my head that in a direction I hadn't thought about previously. So it might be where we're thinking about pricing and how that works for media. And then I'll kind of go into a bit of a deep dive into that and really kind of understand how they all play together for the customer. But conferences are really important too. I think listening to podcasts, you know, a good time and we're on one right now. But I do find that actually kind of also throws ideas my my way of what we could try differently what I should be thinking about. Gen AI is one of the things that keeps coming up constantly and MADFest this year thing about 50% of the content was about that. That really helps you kind of know where the direction of the industry is going to be going and just keeping on top of it.
Tom Ollerton 5:05
So what is your top data driven marketing tip? What is that one silver bullet bit of advice that you find yourself sharing most often versus most useful?
Cate McVeigh 5:17
Yeah, it's probably a bit of advice that people don't want to hear from an analytical person. But whatever worked a year ago, don't depend on it working in the same way today. So, and what I mean by that there's a few different areas, their data availability is really different, regulations keep shifting, customers want more privacy, you gotta be on your toes, you have to be a bit scrappy. So you know, if you say, I did this with a platform a year ago, why wouldn't it work in the same way, if you're not constantly keeping your mind open to what those shifts are going to be, and knowing when they're going to happen, it's probably going to pull you back. So this is a very hard space, if you want a really easy life, you can learn one thing and keep it calm for 40 years, you know, but if it's a space where you just, you're really open to change from that perspective, like almost on a daily basis, it's, it's a great space to be. It's so deeply uncomfortable for people, though. So I'd really encourage people to just like, constantly not rely on the past.
Tom Ollerton 6:30
So can you give me an example of something that worked a year ago, that doesn't work today?
Cate McVeigh 6:34
Yeah, I mean, if I think about things like conversions, so where, you know, you've got direct to consumer sites, you've got great platforms, you've got, you know, Meta, you've got YouTube and everything, where you were able to, you know, in the not so distant past, understand more about customers that were coming in, there was more in the last click side, multi touch attribution was a bit easier when Apple made their shift with iOS 14.5. And, you know, decided to protect customer data in a better way, that really shifted what you were able to say, with Apple devices, which I'm really in favor of, if I'm honest, as a customer more than anything else. But it really shifted how people had to think about performance marketing, and what they had to use that was not actualized. But you know, that was modeled numbers, or that they had to maybe let go of some of the tools or the products that previously used... really difficult, I think, for some companies to handle. But analytics people had to get really scrappy, really quick, and it's not gonna go backwards, it's gonna keep going, there's gonna be more differential customer privacy. So you know, everyone needs to get comfortable with this.
So we're gonna move on now to your shiny new object, which is neurodiversity, which, of course, is nothing new, but it's a much more new topic than it was. So why is neurodiversity your shiny new object?
SoI am neurodiverse. Myself, I have Gil type ADHD, which means I'm also a nightmare to be admittance with for another reason, but it's one of the things I think, has become particularly dear to my heart recently, because there's a lot of things that have been shifting in the media about it, there's actually quite a lot of people in advertising that have a neurodiversity. And I think a lot of you know, a lot of managers, a lot of leaders are struggling to understand how to get the best out of it, how to support people in the right way, not a lot still understood about it. So I think it's, you know, it's an important topic to call out and, and see what we can do to actually unlock some of those superpowers.
Tom Ollerton 8:48
So how do you unlock your ADHD superpower?
Cate McVeigh 8:53
So few different ways, I mean, one of the things for me is if I have a deadline, it will be like a motor sitting underneath me, I will, you know, do anything I possibly can to hit that. Without a deadline, can be a bit of a nightmare for me to decide what the focus needs to be, especially if you've got a lot of different things happening. So you know, chunking things out to making sure there's deadlines and smaller pieces to get to the overall project is really important for me, but I think the other side is genuinely helping my colleagues around me understand, you know, the style of work. What will help me kind of drive things better, where maybe more of my skill sets are like scenario planning, ADHD, people will think through so many different perspectives on any given topic. They can be a wee bit of a jack of all trades, but sometimes, meaning they're a generalist which you can probably see from what I mentioned about my career as well. So yeah, I think having those deadlines in place, and helping others understand how to get the best out of me, are the two things that I've been leaning on.
Tom Ollerton 10:07
So how do you work with your own deadlines versus an external deadline? Does that still work the same way?
Cate McVeigh 10:14
I would probably chunk it out and do it by 20 Little deadlines, just to make it a wee bit easier. So I'll still get it done either way, but it can become really overwhelming sometimes, when you, you know, naturally, your way of doing things is the procrastination side of things, or the hyper focus right at the very end. So making sure you've got the smaller deadlines and actually even asking people to set that accountability physically writing it down, making it more open of what those need to be, is helpful as well. It also helps you manage the expectations around it, because if priorities come up, some neurodiverse folk will work through the night to get it done, as opposed to you know, checking in to see, can we shift anything around. So I think over that course of time, and certainly with monitoring neurodiverse people as well, trying to make it really, really clear what prioritizations look like. So we're kind of taking care of those people and I've taken care of myself is massively important.
Tom Ollerton 11:22
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MADfest whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from MADfest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So this is fascinating to me. How do you articulate it to your colleagues? Do you like when you meet someone for the first time when you're working on a project together? Do you go look I've got sorry, I can't remember exactly so dual ADHD sorry for not catching that perfectly. But you say that look this is my neurodiversity. I love working this way. Are you flexible? Or do you just let them work?
Cate McVeigh 12:22
It's a really good question. Because there's a bit of stigma attached to it. I would say still, I would say some people I work with know, I previously don't know at all others you know, are mindful of it on an everyday basis, I would say you probably have to build up a bit of trust you have to have that psychological safety to feel like you can say it actually think Mars has been really good you know, neuro diversity is absolutely on... its on the topic list for their diversity and inclusion more widely. I'm on the the internal working group on it. When you have that psychological safety, I feel like you can say it to pretty much anyone but I would say if I'm going to work very closely with someone on a project, I probably will say to them things like if I interrupt you, I'm not trying to be rude. It may be because I'm really excited about what to say next. And it's you're seeing the energy come out, the passion come out. Another thing might be, I might jump topic to topic quickly because I've gone from A to Z in my head already without verbalizing it to you. But stop me if you're not following that kind of train of thought but also throw different topics at me because I actually like having variation within things. So you could throw 10 different things within it and that will be okay because working on the same thing constantly for long periods of time can can get a little bit difficult to maintain focus so variation helps.
Tom Ollerton 12:28
So this seems strange to me right because I would like to know that on day one for me personally, like I had a really interesting experience with a new business lead, we were getting on quite well I'm like oh we're gonna work together and stuff all that usual conversation and she said Tom what color are you and I was like you're what is that? I can't remember the name of the structure like you're a red blue or yellow. Yeah, she goes Tom I'm a red and I'm like be brilliant be bright be gone. And you know what I was like, right? Cool. So then in my every single interaction with her from that point onwards was defined by that. So it's like I'm gonna send her an email it's gonna have like six words in it. I'm not going to say hello how are you that do you know what I mean? Just like, I want to have this yes or no. And that interaction worked perfectly but I think that certainly from a sales perspective, you tend to come and come at it a bit yellow a bit like hey such with but if that's not someone's color, they don't want to be talked to like that, then it must be the most frustrating thing in the world. So I want to get more into your insecurity around needing psychological safety. Yeah, because it because it's Who you are, and you're on a podcast talking about it. So you're not shy. So is this something in work in culture? Is there something in society? Is there something in advertising that means that you need that safety before sharing like a really important thing?
Cate McVeigh 15:13
Yeah, I think there's probably a few of those different things. I mean, recently, a Panorama documentary about ADHD specifically and overdiagnosis and almost vilifying people who are who are diagnosed with it, or treating it in different ways, really difficult for people with ADHD, because you know that a lot of people who don't understand it fully are going to sit and watch something like that for an hour. And then take away a very singular focused perspective. I know a lot of people I know, with ADHD felt really unsafe after that. So things like that are difficult. And I think it's been vilified in the press a bit, even just 2023 this year. And there's also things like there's a medication shortage right now for one of the largest prescribed ADHD drugs in the world. And it's really difficult for a lot of people in work who are used to having that on a daily basis, and don't have that at their disposal right now. And with a lot of other medication to come off something very, very quickly, we'd be considered quite dangerous, support would be there, are a lot of people don't want to share that they are medicated for something like neurodiversity. And I think even from a kind of working relationship perspective, some things are... have been used as jokes in the past. So you could have someone who might be particularly introverted, and someone says, I bet they're on the autism spectrum, or someone being slightly disorganized for a meeting, they probably have ADHD, or they have typos in their emails. Maybe they're dyslexic. And I think because those jokes are almost used as a, I made a mistake, isn't this funny? I might have this condition. It still is quite prevalent in the workplace today. Again, I actually haven't seen this quite so much on the Mars side, I feel like it's been extremely supportive. But that does stop you sharing quite a lot. And I, I know that it is quite hurtful to a lot of people who tend to mask on a daily basis, what's going on.
Tom Ollerton 17:31
So is there any kind of agency groups or industry groups for people with ADHD that you're part of or that you can recommend to someone who's listening to this podcast?
Cate McVeigh 17:44
So I, as I said, I'm part of the neurodiversity group within Mars. I'm sure there are pockets within the industry. But I think there needs to be more. And I think it's a little bit around. Do people want to sign up if it's wider industry, if they don't know if it's fully supported to put themselves out there? So as you said, I'm not shy. I'm happy to go to podcasts and talk about it. Because I don't I it's not a, I don't think it's a negative thing. I think my brain just works differently. But it's also made me good at what I do. So I also kind of feel like it's important for people with it, and your diversity to be celebrated a little bit more, that actually there are really clear strengths there.
Tom Ollerton 18:30
I think so, massively. And I had a really interesting chat with a partner of ours. He said to me that once someone on his team came up to him and said, I think you've got ADHD, and I'm trained to observe it. And then he looked into it. And he realized that, absolutely, he did. And he said that it's completely changed his work life. But it's also it's changed the way that I talk to him because I invariably see him at networking events. And the last thing he wants to do is talk to me for half an hour, he wants to talk to me for 35 seconds. And then do that with everyone else. I'm like, hi, mate, how you doing? What's going on? Brilliant, cool. See you later. Whereas I would never talk to someone else like that, because I assume that would be rude, you know, to pawn them off. But I know that he wants to fire off like a rocket round the room having interactions, and he's brilliant at it. So I'm all for getting that stuff out on the table. But I understand with those kind of negative comments and using it as the butt of jokes that it makes it difficult for folk but Cate, we're at the end of the podcast has been brilliant. I've loved it. And I've learned a lot and thank you for challenging me and helping me understand more about this topic of neurodiversity. So if someone wants to get in touch with you about this, or about your role, or whatever it is, where would you like them to do that? And what makes a brilliant message to you that you would actually reply to? ,
Cate McVeigh 19:44
Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn I will always look at unfortunately, it's one of those ones I will probably see on a daily basis. I think a good message is tell me what you want from me like what what can i What can I help with what can I do for you? It just makes it that bit easier for me to know that, you know, it's going to be value for you back. So that would be a great way to kick off that conversation. But I'm really open to talking to people about this and multiple other things as well. But I know people are struggling with this right now as well, especially if they're pre diagnosis or early diagnosis. And wait, I'm more than happy to chat as someone who you know, has a lived experience. And I'm not a psychiatrist, but more than happy to share.
Tom Ollerton 20:27
Okay, thank you so much for your time.
Cate McVeigh 20:29
Thank you.
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