Episode 251 / Christina Rapsomanikis / Mars / Global VP Digital & e-Commerce
Employing a Foundation & Transformation Approach to Marketing
Christina Rapsomanikis is a digital growth leader who's worked across CPG, luxury businesses, and now leads the Digital and e-commerce arm of Mars Pet Nutrition.
In this latest episode of the Shiny New Object Podcast, she shares her favorite marketing book, the importance of psychological safety, link chaining journeys and the practice of foundation and transformation as a basis for successful data driven marketing.
Bonus:
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Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Christina Rapsomanikis 0:00
Those basics of foundations and then the transformation as well - That can often be the thing that leapfrogs you against your competitor or gives you the market share goal that you want or just gives you some kind of sexy PR but I think you've got to do both.
Tom Ollerton 0:18
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Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of the automated creative, creative effectiveness tech platform. And this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. I have the absolute pleasure and privilege of interviewing some of our industry's leaders about the future of this space I in Diageo's fancy Halcyon bar at the top of their HQ. So thank you to those guys for letting me have this ginormous bar all to myself for the afternoon to watch the sunset. But what is more exciting than that is that I'm on a call with Christina Rapsomanikis who is global VP digital and E commerce at Mars Pet Nutrition. So Christina, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do. Could you give us a bit of an introduction?
Christina Rapsomanikis 2:13
Yeah. Hi, Tom. Great to be with you. I'm ultimately a digital growth leader that's worked across various CPG and luxury businesses, including Unilever, Nespresso, Coty, and then my own DTC fashion business. And today, as you say, I'm leading global digital ecommerce for Mars pet nutrition.
Tom Ollerton 2:34
I have to ask you about your DTC fashion business. Tell me all about that.
Christina Rapsomanikis 2:38
Yeah, it was an amazing concept, it still would be an amazing concept, I believe. In 2015, launched it with a great mission, it was called Formula. It was all about making clothes work harder for women. Unknown, unknown fact, maybe I was the first person to bring in Vidya sneakers to the UK had the foresight that they were going to be great. So as my brother says, you would have been really rich, have you have kept that business open? So yeah, amazing learnings. Amazing.
Tom Ollerton 3:07
I've no idea what those trainers are, being the world's least fashionable man. But it sounds very impressive, nonetheless. So I can imagine the unbelievable amount of experience and intelligence and strength you must have got from having that experience of setting up that business? Do you also take practical experience and marry it with reading, do you like marketing reading book? And if so, is there a title that you recommend?
Christina Rapsomanikis 3:30
Yeah, I think you have to be an avid learner. Yeah, definitely a marketing book, I would recommend. And that would be rebel ideas. by Matthew, hopefully, I can say his last name correctly, Syed. And it kind of came across my path as a recommendation via a great friend. And like me, she was in the middle of an inflection point in a transformational role. And the book is all about diverse thinking. And at that moment, I was in the beauty industry leading a digital transformation in a local role.
Tom Ollerton 4:02
So how did the diverse thinking in the book help you hit that inflection point?
Christina Rapsomanikis 4:06
Yeah, I think, firstly, it was about my team. And I learned all about the power of psychological safety by this book and giving people space and encouragement to build, firstly, and then secondly, that virtual horizontal team piece when you're trying to put something into a business, and ultimately your stakeholders, and it talks a lot about thinking about the inner game of chess, which sounds a little bit competitive, but I think what it was trying to explain was in a provocative way, really try and get inside the opponent's head. And those stakeholders like what's important to them to make things stick and then lastly, the consumer, which is really apt for beauty, which is increasing frequency, introduces concept called, I don't know if you've heard of this, link chaining, so link chain journeys. So beauty was really important that we were looking at the journey of the consumer all the time and grocery shopping via gonna work. So that was a really big one for us, like, how do we improve our frequency. And then the last one, which I loved, and still use today is that idea of cross pollinating ideas, and coming up with two concepts and building on ideas and sharing concepts. And again, allowing for that space for people to actually think and come up with ideas. So it's a really good book that I still go back to today.
Tom Ollerton 5:24
Yeah, I'm a really big fan of his Bounce the table tennis book, which sounds really unappealing. But I love the way that he sort of deconstructs the idea of talent. And the fact that it doesn't exist. And it's kind of situation in nature, there's more nurture than it is nature, I thought was interesting. And then black black box thinking, it's just, you read that one?
Christina Rapsomanikis 5:45
No.
Tom Ollerton 5:45
The top line on that one was it opens with a story of this, this lady dying in a routine operation, and then the the surgeon comes out and explains to the husband look, you know, I'm really sorry that it was just one of those things, it was just an accident didn't happen. But he was a he works in aviation, where the aviation industry kind of shares there, every time there's a crash or something, they share the black box with everyone. So everyone has all of the data on everything from technic, technical and audio, so that every flight or every time anything happens, every flight kind of improves on every other flight. So that's why flying is so safe. And then he got that message from that surgeon said, Well, I want to see the black box. And they're like, oh, no, it was one of those things. And so he's actually brought in much more of a black box approach to to the healthcare industry and save, like, probably millions of lives. And it's, it's just an unbelievable story and bit of writing from him. So I haven't read this book. That's all the recommendation I need. So thanks for showing up.
Christina Rapsomanikis 6:39
Let's trade those recommendations, then. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 6:42
I'd like to talk about psychological safety on a data driven marketing podcast. So like, I get it. And it's kind of one of those things that looks great on a slide. And it's easy to say, but how would you make it happen?
Christina Rapsomanikis 6:52
Yeah, I think I think bringing, I think you have to put these levels. And when you're leading groups to put an establishment of data structure in, I think we that's our job to do that. And once we put that into place, then you can say to the teams, all yours now, we've given you the authority to go and get curious, like, join at the Gingerbread trails. And I think it's amazing when you have a group of people, and hopefully it's diverse as possible. And they're able to kind of use what's human nature, they all want to build, they want to feel part of something, and allowing people the space to play and explore. I think it's really important.
Tom Ollerton 7:30
And then tell me about link chaining journeys. Embarrassingly, that's a new term to me, how we understand that that better?
Christina Rapsomanikis 7:36
Yeah, so I think it goes back to that, like consumer of understanding where the consumer is shopping, how they're shopping, using signals. And we learn that a lot in beauty, no network, you know, there's when you have a brand, you can get quite egotistical, if that's not my brand. That's not that doesn't belong in grocery, then you start to look at the stage and you're like, oh, yeah, there you go. That luxury consumer does go to the grocery store, just like all of us. So how can we kind of interrupt them on their way? How can we get them seeing our signals online, or like just being there in store? So that was a really big one for us?
Tom Ollerton 8:18
So can we get to a specific bit of advice for data driven marketing? Is there one silver bullet that you find yourself sharing with your teams most often, or something you've just always works? And you always go back to it?
Christina Rapsomanikis 8:30
Yeah, I think I think it goes back to that allowing people to build and giving a framework and one of the frameworks I found that really helpful for me, is something I call the five five A's. So like being aspirational about what are we trying to do with this data? So aspiring to to a bigger vision? How do we assess it all? How do we build it? How do we act upon it, which is a big underline for me having such bias for action and a big, so what? And then how do we advance it and the team seem to respond really well to that. And it kind of helps you when you're doing some cross functional work as well. Everybody's got something to sing to.
Tom Ollerton 9:10
So I've missed an A aspirational, assess, act upon it?
Christina Rapsomanikis 9:15
Architect, be the architect behind it act and then advance it and it really works.
Tom Ollerton 9:19
So can you just give me a kind of belly basics run through that you can use a fictional example or a real one. So you're you're going to get a launch campaign for whatever cosmetics brands, how would you how would you run through those five days?
Christina Rapsomanikis 9:33
Yeah, I can give you a live one actually, doing a piece of work at the moment where our poor ecom teams have, like an incredible amount of data, but it's all living in many, I won't give you an actual number, many different tools as probably is happening for most people. So we've done a piece of work on how do we consolidate those tools and we've done the work to look at like, what are we trying to get to like aspiring wise, how many tools do we want to drive efficiency? How do we assess what the hell is in those tools? And what's the data going into it? And then how do we archetype? How to archetype them? With our D, dt and da teams? And then what are we going to do like that act piece, which I think is quite a big behavioral shift for us of how do we move from data to insight to data for actions? And, and then how do we advance it? Like, what's the 2.0 of it?
Tom Ollerton 10:25
Yeah, lovely. So now we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is practice of foundation and transformation. So I know what all those words mean, together. But what what is that? And why is it your shiny new object?
Christina Rapsomanikis 10:39
Yeah, very much a practice. And it's tried and tested. And it's both as you say, foundation and and as a big underline on the and transformation. And I think the magic happens for everybody when you deliver both. And that means Foundation is a laser approach to all those tasks that everybody had just like that, oh, God, I don't want to do I used to call them brilliantly boring basics at Coty tried to do in Mars, and they hated it. But it is those basics of foundations, and then the transformation as well. That can often be the thing that leapfrogs you against your competitor or gives you the market share goal that you want, or just gives you some kind of sexy PR. But I think you've got to do both. So
Tom Ollerton 11:18
can you take me through the brilliant boring basics or not sure what that can translate it to Morris, but why are they boring? Why are they important? And how do you do them better?
Christina Rapsomanikis 11:27
Yeah, they're often I think weed is often the weed work of looking at if you think about the ecom world, like what's going on with that perfect store? What's going on with the ratings reviews? Why are they down? What's it telling us? Even things like supply chain, which is so important for ecom, people forget, like, what markets have got EDI? And how do we send our orders in which down and back to that data piece? Like how do we want to build this and often people can think in the world that we work in, it's really cool. And we all get to sit in a Diageo building. And it really is that like, it's those frameworks and so not even frameworks, the basics of the foundations that you have to just continually look at and continually improve. And I feel really passionate about them, because they're the real big needle movers.
Tom Ollerton 12:14
Yeah, so I think that there's a sort of common misconception in marketing where some marketing people talk about like, they run the whole business. But my view that marketing is there to act as a tool to solve a business problem. And too often when marketing acts in its own little bubble, so Oh, we got the you know, we've got the we've got the brand house, and we delivered all the different formats, all the different platforms. But ultimately, if there's a listing issue, or as you say, a supply chain issue, then the whole thing falls over. And it might actually not be a marketing problem. It might be something the shape of the box, or the tin might be wrong or something like that. So how do you use data to make sure that you're tackling the right basics, I'm kind of curious to know what kind of intelligence you have to find out where the gap in the chain?
Christina Rapsomanikis 13:01
I think it comes from, you're going to want to use your consumer data for one that kind of drives everything. And then that a few times now at Coty, I called it like voices, the beauty consumer. And now I'm calling it voice of the pet parents that kind of shapes everything and unites teams. So you can look at that full end to end so you can include supply chain, and guys, this is falling down. And we've done this brilliant campaign. And then I also think making sure that the teams are working together sounds really simple, but in like Power of One teams, because we've all got different pieces of data. So they would be you might have your ingestion coming from a retailer of like, what's my scorecard, but you will also have kind of maybe a scraping system that we have, which helps us look at our perfect store. So you can see what's out of stock, but you can also see what like your share of voices and why it's changing all the time and ratings and reviews how they're fluctuating. So there's so much as you know, so much data out there and just putting it all together if you can, awesome. That's all you can't have. You don't always get those opportunities and don't have the teams to help you do that. So at least if you can get everyone together to look at that end to end and build a process super helpful.
Tom Ollerton 14:23
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So what was your kind of first aha moment when it came to data and creativity in advertising that made you realize that there was just such a strong relationship between foundation and transformation? Like, what was that moment?
Christina Rapsomanikis 15:14
I'm gonna go back to my business actually, was I really wanted, I was 28. And I really wanted the consumer to be cool. And I wanted it to be young. And I was forever doing things like flatlays, if you remember, those were Instagram. And those doing certain types of advertising, as well. And, and then when I got the data, and I could see like, oh, gosh, the consumer is not who I think it is at all. And I'll say this, again, I was 28. And the consumer was like, over 40, living in the suburbs and had high disposable income. And I remember being devastated about that. Now I look back, and I'm like, crikey, this is me now, potentially. And I was able to, like, understand what the hell was going on. And thank goodness pivot, what the hell I was doing, kind of swallow my ego and change what I was doing stock wise, change how I was advertising even started doing some pop up shops, try to get the consumer to come back in a kind of CRM model with me. But that, to me, was really career defining life defining actually. And that's why I get so obsessed in my teams now about data.
Tom Ollerton 16:24
And why it was upsetting to you that the audience wasn't who you thought it was?
Christina Rapsomanikis 16:28
Cuz no one wants to be wrong. And I was young and had a massive ego. And it was my baby, I think, and I just really thought I'd done enough research. And as it transpired, you know, I did some really great focus groups, and the consumer was just saying to me, you make me look great. I don't have anywhere to shop, you understand me, thank you. And I'd like to buy more from you probably won't share it with my friends. So it's my CRM is a problem because they didn't want to share me with any of their friends, but they wanted to buy more. So their propensity to be loyal to me themselves was really high. It's a big learning, I find it really interesting when I come across, like, really egotistical brand leads when they're like my audience is Gen Z, and I'm like it's not let me show you some data, it's really not and you, you're gonna have to swallow that and look at how you go to market. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 17:20
So let's stay with that little anecdote. So you've got your ego driven brand person, and you're gonna go, I'm going to show you some data, what is the data?
Christina Rapsomanikis 17:29
Yeah, can be anything, I guess depending on the platform you're looking at as well. So thinking about it's not easy when you've got your own kind of first party data and you're running your own DTC. But if you've got the right partnerships with retailers, you can see it from there. But one of the I remember sharing with a brand lead in the US when I was working there and Amazon had given me the most incredible profiling of who was buying and I was able to share it from retailer data as well.
Tom Ollerton 17:58
So how would you think doing this well, it sounds like you got a very successful team doing this we're having having worked on on mars pet but who do you look at who do you look up to outside of your own business think you know what they've really got it right and I wish I was more like them
Christina Rapsomanikis 18:17
I think Victoria Beckham Beauty's nailing it really, really well. She did a great job. I think a really lovely independent in the UK who I still go back to quite a lot and look at their website and look at how they speak to me and understand me company called patch plants. Have you heard of them?
Tom Ollerton 18:36
I think so. I'm gonna have a quick look now remind myself it's awesome.
Christina Rapsomanikis 18:40
How they really start to understand you as a consumer and bring the plants to life quickly. Names and how you how it works for you and how do you how do you want it delivered and they check in with you. I mean, I could go down the whole Dyson route with you but I'm not going to I think these brilliant like agile small companies like that. And I've come back from living in New York and as I call them to help patch canceled in here and ordered one last night. Yes, even better. In the four years I've been away
Tom Ollerton 19:10
for so what's Victoria Beckham do how does the How was she combining the foundation and transformation in Euro?
Christina Rapsomanikis 19:17
I think she does. Exceptional user user journey work on her website. She herself is a great marketeer and she links everything and service is incredible of like the speed she delivers how she delivers and product and the the kind of follow up you get with it as well. And then the way she kind of talks to me about her transformational piece for her would be innovation and why I need it and my makeup bag.
Tom Ollerton 19:48
I think the best thing that I've seen her do was she did the t shirt that said my dad had a Rolls Royce. So good. absolute best bid from that amazing documentary. For anyone hasn't seen it. Everyone's done
Christina Rapsomanikis 20:01
that, haven't they? That likes?
Tom Ollerton 20:05
Brilliant. Yeah, just having a look at patch now it's nice. It's quite interesting. The photos are very unsocialized. It's like sort of almost poorly lit very real kind of very much just that forever ever, almost like dead on. But anyway, so I'm not going to do and I
Christina Rapsomanikis 20:22
know it's brilliant, it's authentic and I think I'd love to go in because I would be probably my profile in the CRM profile would be one of the people that kills plants, I'm always this will last long, you don't have to water it too much.
Tom Ollerton 20:41
So when's the right time to ditch the data and just get creative?
Christina Rapsomanikis 20:45
Good question. I think ongoing, I think you always need a bit of data. But I think you can take like really nice pauses and be like, what is it share it? What is it showing? And like, let's test this. Honestly, there was a moment for me in the middle of COVID, where we were working so fast, and we were all working on teams. I remember. We were just the teams were like coming up with ideas continue to live. I haven't seen this yet. We've gained market share here. Do you think it's this? No, I don't think it's there. And I would like quite often just be provocative and jump in with a thought. And then they would just carry on spinning on it. And just like, actually, I think the setting spray, oh my God, I've just looked at this. It's not a setting spray, talking make up here. To set makeup, people are using it for their heart and their brothers. And they're using it to cool down and I was like, right, let's pivot some of our copy here. And yeah, I think I think it's ongoing.
Tom Ollerton 21:41
So talking about getting those brilliant, basic, really boring basics, right? And doing the transformation, exciting, cool. Testing creative stuff, like how do you hire for that? How do you build a team that can deliver that? Do you have like some kind of smooshy? Unicorns in the middle? Or do you do right you lot other date a lot you love the creative? Or how do you how do you build the right team to support that ambition?
Christina Rapsomanikis 22:06
Yeah, I think you're gonna get like a mindset that wants to do data. And then you're gonna get a really like really great creative people that will want to do more of the transformational piece of wider creative stuff. And I think you might you have to, but you, you have to allow those people to like, cross pollinate as well and kind of be able to help their peer set, work on it and kind of add their out their points into it. Like I remember having a wonderful creative lady in the team. And she, she was the person that always I thought would always come up with all the ideas. And she was she was always live in the chats. But then she would often be like, Go and sit and I'd find her sat with the data team and be like, I want to do this because I want to make sure what I'm saying is right, and I was like one day would you like to go work over there? And she was like, Yes, I would. So I think it's just keeping everybody curious. And if they work in together really well. You can you can kind of blend teams really well as well.
Tom Ollerton 23:04
So how do you how do you get across the the horrible gulf between you've got platform ones and zeros data, which like some people call it silent data, some call it the shadows of people, that is a ton. There's loads of it, there's more that you could ever want. And then you've got 20 people in a focus group and one person leads a conversation and it's all a bit like, Oh God, I know you're saying this, but like, would you actually do it and so you've got you've got all the warm, gooey humaneness the observational coil soft stuff, and then you've got this like deluge of stuff that the platforms are gonna spray at you and one's great for one thing not great for another and same with the other one. So but there's a gulf there, they're still there. Isn't that like a cut and dried way of making that work. But for you for marzipan? How do you cross that divide?
Christina Rapsomanikis 23:53
We are starting to use AI to do that is one of the things we've picked up of like we've got to find a way to pull this together. We have one of the things about Mars is we have incredible DEA teams like really incredible. So they're always looking at how do we bridge gaps like that. But I think it takes leadership to say I'm really clear, and I love talking. I was gonna say the boys boys and girls. And just be like, this is where I want to go with it. And this is kind of some of the use cases I want to pull out of it. I think you need to give people a steer as well. So they can understand how to put those two really different and datasets together. Yeah, but we haven't sold it. No.
Tom Ollerton 24:39
And I'm very confident no one no one no one has and I'm not even sure they ever will. And I think I think everyone is like nudging forward AI got in the middle of it. So we you know, if they if AI does figure it out, then we'll be out of a job in five years anyway, so hopefully it'll study that immediately. Christine Thank you so much, man. I would love to ask you tons more questions. It's been really insightful and enjoyable. If someone wants to get in touch with you about any of the things we've talked today, where is the best place to do it? And what makes a message that you will actually respond to?
Christina Rapsomanikis 25:15
You can get in contact with me and LinkedIn message, that's fine. spell my name, right. I think it'd be one thing to pull out something we've talked about and how you might solve one of my problems.
Tom Ollerton 25:28
Nice, brilliant. Well, look, let's leave it there. Thank you so much.
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