Episode 128 / Sanofi / Caitlin Nguyen / Digital Transformation Lead
Why Brands Need to Increase Their Customer Connection in the Post-Covid World
As Digital Transformation Leader for Consumer / Healthcare / Pharma at Sanofi, Caitlyn Nguyen oversees the whole APAC market as well as China, Eurasia, the Middle East and Africa, using “everything digital” to bring value in marketing and sales while catering to customers’ needs. Her Shiny New Object is the future of connections in the time of Covid, specifically the need for increasing data-led empathy with consumers.
Throughout her career, Caitlyn has always maintained a “sense of wonder” about what digital and tech can do for a brand, for its consumers, and for her personally. This is one of her key pieces of advice to students new into the marketing world in this segment, along with maintaining and cultivating a sense of purpose.
While purpose can help you through tough times and when you’re under pressure, Caitlyn also credits her success so far with always being open to meeting new people, especially those with views different from hers. There is always a different way of looking at things, so her advice is: “Be open to being uncomfortable.”
This translates into her Shiny New Object: the future of connections in the time of Covid. Now more than ever, Caitlyn thinks that brands need to put themselves in the consumers’ shoes and aim to establish meaningful connections before selling products. Yes, this is something that should have been on the agenda all along, but the Covid-19 pandemic has brought it sharply to brands’ attention as well all navigated feelings of isolation and anxiety.
As Caitlyn puts it: “I may not remember your advertising messages, but I’ll remember how I felt.” Therefore, brands should start designing an end-to-end process that takes into account customers’ experience, identifying the moments that matter. It’s a tough, long process, but one that can be started by trial and error. “Try, test and learn.”
To find out more about Caitlyn’s best marketing advice, her experience of marketing through the pandemic and her tips for networking in all settings, listen to the podcast.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:00
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Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I am the founder of Automated Creative and this is a podcast about the future of marketing. Every week or so. I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders, and this week is no different. I'm on a call with Caitlin Nguyen, who is the digital transformation lead consumer healthcare APAC, China, Eurasia, Middle East Africa, at Sanofi. Just wanted to get every single bit of your remit in there, Caitlin, for those people in the audience who don't know who you are, or what you do, could you give them a brief overview?
Caitlin Nguyen 1:10
Yeah, sure, Tom. Thanks. Thanks for that. Hi, everyone. I'm Caitlin. I'm based here in Singapore. And I look after digital transformation for the consumer healthcare business unit at Sanofi. And my work entails working with marketing teams, and commercial teams. And by you know, leveraging data, technology, and all things digital to bring greater value back to business.
Tom Ollerton 1:42
Fantastic. So you've got a massive remit in terms of the markets that you cover, and then any kind of transformation is a huge project, even in one market. So you must have had quite a extensive experience and journey to get there. But what what is the kind of advice you would give to someone who would want it to follow in your footsteps that would want to follow a similar type of career? What would you say to a student in 2021?
Caitlin Nguyen 2:13
Yeah, so for for anyone who who's keen to learn and to get into digital, and in particular digital transformation, what I would say is always have, maintain your sense of wonder, right, your sense of curiosity and wonder about what digital and tech can do for you as, as, as an individual, as a consumer, as a customer, for others, and then lastly, for brands and businesses, right? So it's, if you're able to internalize and sort of articulate a sense of what it means to you, you know, if sort of having that purpose, then then it makes the job much more enjoyable. And it makes sort of your output more relevant and more meaningful.
Tom Ollerton 3:16
And so how would you, how would you propose that they actually do that, because it this is a very nice thing to say, maintain your sense of wonder, right? I'm gonna love it. But well, someone gets swamped, right, you've got to write 120 slide deck, for combining the, you know, the click through rates of all these five different markets or whatever it is, and sometimes the the Wonder can just get absolutely blasted out of the water by by the day to day, so how do you how do you maintain it? Or how do you resurrect it?
Caitlin Nguyen 3:44
Well, the way the way it, you know, is worked for me and you know, my own personal experience, you know, with this is, I think about the connection that I want to build with my customer or my consumer. So I put myself in the consumer's shoes, right? What does good look like for the consumer when they experience your brand when they experience your business? What does good look like? And then also, what is amazing what does great look like? Right? So it's really staying, you know, connected or establishing a sort of that mental and emotional connection with with with the consumer that you have in mind. Which leads me to a related point, or rather, sort of what I touched upon earlier is this sort of this sense of wonder? It's about purpose. So for yourself, think about you know, kind of what gets you out of bed each day and that's going to become meaningful when kind of things get tough things things get rough at work, right. When when you're under a lot of pressure when there's a lot of stress, politics, you know, whatever it is, that that makes the working life a bit uncomfortable and that's inevitable. But as long as you stay kind of centered on that sense of purpose, and you can articulate for yourself, what gets you out of bed? Why do you care about digital? You know, what is it about digital that's meaningful? For you and for the consumer, like I was saying earlier, right? And, and, and go kind of cerebral about it, you know, how can you lead a Purpose Driven Life, with digital with tech with data, you know, because there's, you know, kind of pros and cons, right to, to show kind of the dark side and the light side. And so, you know, what does it mean for you, you know, and, and this, this purpose, that I'm talking about, it could be embedded in a brand new a brand, and you know, or in the organization, or it could be more internal, he could just come from you, I find that if it comes from you, then it makes, it makes things more bearable. When, when, when things get tough. So, I would say, you know, if you're thinking about digital, you think about, you know, the work of transformation, really starts to interrogate within yourself, this this sense of purpose and the sense of connection.
Tom Ollerton 6:11
So, what has been your best investment of time, energy or money in your career?
Caitlin Nguyen 6:21
Meeting people, meeting as many people as possible those from different backgrounds, those who have, you know, very different points of view from yourself. And, you know, This usually means, you know, attending different events, both in person as well as, as virtual. Ask many, many questions, right? No question is silly. It doesn't have to be it, you know, you don't have to be super smart to ask, you know, no particular questions about someone's profession, or what's been somebody's experience. So for me, it's really about learning, networking, accepting that each opinion is different each, you know, for each conviction that you have, about anything about your work, or about, you know, what's what's, what's the right thing, there's always an opposing view, but please, you know, be open, to be challenged to be open to feeling uncomfortable. And, and I've put myself in these situations, right? either in the form of doing, you know, fireside chats, on panels, roundtables, even, you know, training, volunteering your time and energy. It's been very, very meaningful for me. And it's, it's given me the sense of perspective that I bring to my work.
Tom Ollerton 7:51
And how have you done that over lockdown? How have you managed to make sure that you're being exposed to different points of view and being made to feel uncomfortable, as you say, in a non meeting people environment?
Caitlin Nguyen 8:07
Yeah, exactly the way you and I are connecting now via teams via zoom. And, you know, so so so so,
Tom Ollerton 8:17
But I mean, how do you how do you find uncomfortable and different conversations because sure, we all connect via video conferences. That's fair enough, but how do you like, get to my point, if you go to a conference, you can go, Oh, I never thought about going to Xyz, so I'll go into that room, or I'll go and listen to that talk and just be challenged. Whereas it's harder to do that online. Because you're like, right, I need to learn about x, oh, there's a conference about x, I'll go to that. And there's less serendipity. So how have you? How have you made sure that you've had been exposed to points of view that challenge you?
Caitlin Nguyen 8:56
It's, it's a structured approach. So as well as an unstructured approach. So for example, a structured is like, you know, if there are, you know, virtual events, conferences that are organized, and there's always an agenda, and there's always, you know, sort of timeline, timetable, etc, unstructured, it's more, it's more, you know, kind of the informal network thing that that anyone can do easily. And that's, that's what I've done even before COVID. Right. And especially, you know, last year throughout COVID. So, I propose virtual teas, or virtual coffees or virtual happy hours. And, you know, get up engage with with other industry professionals about their experiences and their learnings and their failures. And I was surprised that most folks were very open to this type of an exchange.
Tom Ollerton 9:55
Did you just reach out to randoms on LinkedIn or was there a way of doing this?
Caitlin Nguyen 10:00
Actually, that was something that I found very, very interesting and enjoyable actually reaching out to, to those, you know, through LinkedIn or through other networks. Say, Hey, you know, I think we can trade a few stories, right, about x, y, z. You know, would you be keen to, you know, having a virtual tea or coffee. And I was surprised, that was actually a sort of a test for me. And I was really surprised that most folks were very open to it, I think, you know, that the human level, you know, we were all kind of yearning to connect, and this was sort of an unusual new way of connecting. So it was, it's been a very positive experience. So post COVID, and the new normal, I would continue this both virtually as well as in person.
Tom Ollerton 10:51
And before we get to your shiny new object, can you share a marketing tip that you live by, or have always shared off every single thing?
Caitlin Nguyen 11:01
So I have a team, a small team of analysts, and researchers and my team, and, you know, they, they are very data driven, you know, they, they, they're very analytical. And, you know, I always say, it's funny, because, you know, you live in data, you sleep with data and insight, but we need to extract it out even more beyond the inside, what does it mean for the consumer? How do we empathize with the consumer in the most meaningful way? And especially now, with the shifts and the changes in consumer behavior and consumer expectations? So how do we really turn data, you know, use data leverage data? And so I would say for any marketeer, be in the shoes of the consumer, empathize. But please empathize. You know, with data and, and not, you know, ignore kind of the signals that the right type of data could give you.
Tom Ollerton 12:21
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with MAD//Fest, whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect a distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches, and unconventional entertainment from MAD//fest events, you'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So we'll move on now to your shiny new object. And you have called it the future of connections in the time of COVID. So, that sounds cool. But what does it actually mean?
Caitlin Nguyen 13:16
Yeah, it was really interesting when I when I was thinking about connections and the future of connections, during you know, times of COVID and post COVID, right. We all know that, you know, digital experiences for us as employees and workers as well as for brands. That's, you know, it's been evolving and you know, with COVID needs, you know, evolve expectations evolve patience, you know, has shrunk. And so, I've been thinking about it from first the point of view of of a marketeer. So, from a marketing point of view. Then I also thought about it from more of a commercial of a sales point of view, what what this notion of connection and digital connections mean. And then last but not least, from from from an employee worker point of view. So, if I could go back to marketing, I talked before about you know, really connecting with the consumer, making sure that the consumer bonds to you, you know, bonds to your brand, being there for the consumer and throughout the different moments in your life. And if I were to bring it, you know, even closer to home for me, interestingly, I would like in this, you know, the social isolation during the pandemic to my life as a first time mother, Okay, first time mother taking care of an infant, the intensity of emotion, both positive and negative. That was, you know, prevalence during, during, during that time. And for the consumer, you know, is there's almost this, this, this call to, to to engage with me right to educate me to surprise and delight me. Because I will remember how I feel, right? I may not remember all of your advertising messages, I may not remember the promotions, right that that was offered to me. But I remember how I feel.
Tom Ollerton 15:46
Alright, so can I just get a bit of clarity on on one point before you continue? So, I'm making some assumptions about the good and bad things that happened during being a young mother and I have a small child. So that's very, sort of resonant for me. Obviously, I wasn't the mother, but can you just give a bit more detail be more specific about what that was like? And why that is? relevant? Exactly. to people in lockdown?
Caitlin Nguyen 16:17
Yeah, look, you know, as a first time mother, I had heard, you know, from other folks or other mums, more experienced mums you know, don't, don't, don't isolate yourself, it's very easy to, to, to to be isolated, you can always reach out, you know, there are, you know, tools, and there are communities out there. So, you know, make sure you don't, you know, kind of go down that path and think that you're going through all of this alone, right. And as much as I understood kind of that, from a rational perspective, I think, when I was when I was experiencing motherhood, you know, I did feel, you know, that sort of isolation and, and, you know, it was when I was desperate, right, to really get, you know, breastfeeding and feeding and sleep and, you know, taking care of a very young child, get it all right. You know, it wasn't until I actually found, you know, sort of, in my case, it was sort of the right community. And, interestingly, it was a sort of a community that was, let's say, sponsored by a brand, right, but it wasn't so much of the branded experience, it was more it was more the emotional human experience as a mum. And, and this, this was kind of like, it was called the connected mums club, right. And it was, it was just very, very meaningful. Because I, I felt safe, and I felt, okay, so here is a community that is nurturing. And that is also, you know, solution oriented at the same time, right. So it was done in a way that that wasn't very commercial, it was it was very much around marketing, consumer engagement. That was more from the, from the business perspective, right. But it wasn't, it wasn't experienced and received that way. And so, you know, going back to, to my earlier notion about, you know, connections and digital connections for the consumer, it's similar, right? So, you're working from home, or, you know, you have to do homeschool schooling and your life becomes just very, very complex, but you still have, you know, various needs, if it's health, or, you know, if it's personal care, whatever it is, I think, what makes a difference, you know, is the type of connections that brands can create, that, you know, gets you to feel this way, gets you to feel surprised and delighted. But at the same time, there's like a practical meaning behind that. And then of course, yes, I do need this product, please, I want to buy from you.
Tom Ollerton 19:04
So, so why is that? So I get the analogy about, you know, people locked at home or a bit like first time moms, you don't really know what's going on, they're emotional, and, and they need, they have different emotions, and they need support for those emotions, but also any practical advice and kind of everything in between. and you're saying that actually brands need to provide that and more, but how is that different? Because of the pandemic and shouldn't they have been doing that anyway?
Caitlin Nguyen 19:35
I think they definitely should have been, you know, doing that, but I think with the pandemic, it's even more intense. It's even more you know, sort of this need this intensity of the need, and brands that get there first will succeed and the consumer will will stick to to to that. Add to that brands ecosystem in terms of that experience.
Tom Ollerton 20:03
So how to brands get started with this, how do they... someone's listening to this thinking, Yep, totally down with that. We're not doing that, but we need to. Where is the first step?
Caitlin Nguyen 20:13
Yeah, you know, I think I think it's a really, you know, starts with insight, it really starts with working within within the or within your, within your teams, to design a very holistic, more end to end more, and it doesn't have to be perfectly end to end but you know, more holistic view of the moments that matter. Yeah, I mean, this is one of, you know, kind of the important pillars of transformation, right, is really, to really unlock you know, the meaning behind these connections. And then and then to deliver against that, it's, it's not easy. The, the other piece that I was that I had in mind, you know, in terms of thinking about Connections is in the commercial space is, you know, in, in the new norm during and post COVID we have an opportunity to kind of bring forth new commercial initiatives, commercial use cases, similarly to e commerce, right, sort of that, that sort of business, to business relationships are being digitized in our space, you know, customers, other doctors may favor you know, zoom for a lot of the in person meetings and a lot of these, a lot of this, this behavior would persist when we get back to to what, you know, the old norm that the old new norm, right. Some favor emails and other channels, you know, Whatsapp, Signal. So, you know, we've seen that the boundaries between sale telesales remote call center service are really, really blurring. And so for us, you know, we've started to really think about this and start to think, you know, in terms of the different commercial personas, the sales, the Salesforce, the, you know, the customers that we meet, and similarly, you know, what, what is meaningful connection for them, what type of information, what type of content that, you know, is meaningful, and then what would persist When, when, when things are back to back to normal post vaccine world. And so, it's really looking at that, and really, you know, defining those really specific use cases, you don't have to do so many just do one or two, and test and test and learn
Tom Ollerton 22:55
I love that a lot. But unfortunately, we have to call it a day there. If someone wanted to get in touch with you. How would you like them to do that?
Caitlin Nguyen 23:03
I'm available on LinkedIn.
Tom Ollerton 23:07
That was a big sigh after that. That was the big sigh. After you said,
Caitlin Nguyen 23:11
No I was thinking of Twitter, but I'm not so active on Twitter. anymore. LinkedIn is great. And if you want to do a virtual tea or virtual coffee, I'd be open to that.
Tom Ollerton 23:23
What a great idea. Caitlin. Thank you so much for your time.
Caitlin Nguyen 23:26
Thank you. Have a great day. Bye, everyone.
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