Episode 245 / Victoria Kerr / Uber for Business / Director of Marketing EMEA & APAC
Unlocking Creative Value Through End User Engagement in B2B Marketing
Vicki is the Director of Marketing EMEA and APAC at Uber for Business, where she is a firm believer in the importance of data - as long as it doesn’t slow down the decision making process.
As she explains, "it's really important to understand the data that you need, that's gonna give you good signals in order to make good decisions." Her Shiny New Object is the B2B push & pull - innovating in what’s traditionally been regarded as the “poor cousin” of B2C marketing.
Understanding Data Signals and Customer Needs
Marketers need to make sense of what is “signal vs noise” when it comes to sifting through large data sets. As our previous guest, Anna Estlund, reminded us, you need to know what will actually move the needle. This comes from understanding your end users, but also from a lot of trial and error. Vicki considers herself lucky to be able to experiment accordingly at Uber for Business - something each marketer should have the ability to do in their niche.
Another key data driven marketing tip is to never look at data in silos. This could mean "going and sitting down and listening to a customer services call to understand what's driving some of this." It also means speaking to everyone in your extended team regularly.
B2B Push & Pull and Creative Activations
The B2B side of marketing is learning more from driving the pull from end users (where marketers can drive consideration and salience), as well as the push of embracing innovation and technology for better demand generation. This is why the “push & pull” is Vicki’s Shiny New Object.
A great example of this is a Heinz activation where consumers were given the option to add a tip to their restaurant bills, saying how much more they’d have paid for their meal if they had been offered Heinz ketchup. The brand reimbursed those restaurants, but also cleverly stimulated B2B demand as the owners could see their end consumers requesting a product. Strategies like this show new potential for unlocking creative value in B2B.
Technology Will Blur the Lines Between B2C and B2B
Looking to the future, Vicki predicts that changes in work styles will mean "the lines just blur" between B2C and B2B marketing. Technology will continue driving innovation, with B2B brands leveraging more traditionally B2C channels. As Vicki notes, "I just think there's going to be more and more innovation around that space." With data and creativity working in tandem, the potential for data-driven B2B marketing is vast.
Learn more about clever B2B activations, working the trial-and-error method, and other top tips from Vicki on the podcast.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Victoria Kerr 0:00
It's pretty easy for folks that are in more kind of strategic roles to look at data and be like, clearly this is what we should do, but it's like, Have you actually gone and sat down and listened to your customer services? Like call to understand what's driving some of this? No, probably not. Go and do that.
Tom Ollerton 0:18
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform. And this is a weekly podcast about the future of data driven marketing. I'm in Uber's office in Amsterdam, very exciting with Victoria Kerr, who is Director of Marketing EMEA and APAC Uber for business, Viki for anyone who doesn't know you, and what you do, can you give them a bit of background?
Victoria Kerr 0:44
So Hi, I'm Vicki and I head up marketing for Uber for business for EMEA, and APAC. So essentially, Uber for business is kind of a scale up within the the bigger Uber org. And it's the b2b division. So it's about kind of wrapping up all of Ubers products and services mainly on the core side. So like rides, for example, or eats, and then for the most part of selling that into kind of mid market and enterprise companies.
Tom Ollerton 1:06
So in your career, what you do now, and up to that point, I'm curious to know what have you spent your own hard earned money on that has been really powerful for you in your work.
Victoria Kerr 1:19
So I'm going to start by saying this is absolutely not an ad and you might know him but ... If for anyone that hasn't heard of the Mark Ritson is an amazing marketing professor, and does a mini MBA in marketing with marketing week. And he also does a brand course as well. So during 2020, and 2021, I take advantage of the COVID era and spent my hard earned cash during these courses. And they were just an amazing investment for me for sure. I think he does a really good job of cutting through some of the noise in our industry, and really kind of giving folks a practical kind of application of our trade.
Tom Ollerton 1:54
I'm impressed you paid for that yourself, that must have been no, no small investment from from what I hear. So for someone who is on the fence about doing that course. And it's been very popular, what are the kind of three things you're like, that's transformed my understanding of the industry, and you talk about cutting through the noise, which is great, but like, convince someone, they should do this course?
Victoria Kerr 2:11
Well, I was saving a lot not going out right in in 2020. So I think, firstly, is definitely cutting through the noise. Like I think he does a really good job of making like engaging creative and content to really kind of drive home the principles of marketing. And I think it can be pretty easy to get lost in our industry. So I think he does a really good job of, you know, like I say, giving us reasonable frameworks, like pointing in some direction for great research, I just think it's super entertaining and really informative.
Tom Ollerton 2:39
So moving on, what is your top data driven marketing tip that you find yourself sharing most often or passing on to others?
Victoria Kerr 2:48
Data is super important, essentially. And I've had the I've had the privilege to work in some very data driven businesses with a lot of access to amazing data. So I think my first thing is that you really need to understand the data that you need, that's gonna give you good signal in order to make good decisions. In some places, it can be easy to get like analysis paralysis, and spend hours and hours and hours on it. And actually, I'm not sure you get like the kind of incremental insight, I'd also say, don't look at data in silos, it's really important to have a holistic idea of what's going on. So it's really important to take your kind of signals from data, and sense test them, whether it's like with research, for example, or even speaking to like, from a b2b perspective, like sales teams or people in market deskspace research just to make sure that, you know, there's not anomalies in the data that might be sending you in the wrong direction.
Tom Ollerton 3:36
So when you're separating in signal from noise, how do you do that, because we're getting increasing numbers of data signals from lots of different platforms, I take your point about actually taking these data points out into the real world and testing them with various people on the team. But you've got a dashboard with seven different graphs going on. And you've got different reports from different platforms. How do you how do you know what is signal? How do you know what is noise? And what advice would you give to someone to be able to sift through that?
Victoria Kerr 4:05
Oh, good question. Probably worth a lot of money. The answer to that question. I think, like, I think some of it's, you know, trial and error, right? And you need to be able to, I think it's really important to work in places where you can experiment and test, you know, in small batches, and then scale, find out what's working, what's not working. So that I think is really the thing. And like I say, I think it's really about not looking at things in silos, like it can be really easy to go down rabbit holes with some data, but you need to hold yourself accountable and incent check things like use the product yourself go, like I say, do research, you know, listen to customer or sales conversations. The tools are definitely there. I just think it's really important that folks don't, don't only look at one source,
Tom Ollerton 4:45
Can I ask you to be specific and give me an example of that? Maybe not here but in a past role, where you've you've realized you were in a silo or you went out and he tried to product so help me understand where he had like that aha moment where you're like, I'm using too much data here. But actually, this is the thing that I need.
Victoria Kerr 5:01
I think for me it's been and this is not over, by the way. But I would say it's been working with colleagues who are super, super data driven, that has really kind of made me enforce that we need to be more sensible about some of this stuff. Like actually, my background, certainly early in my career was pretty varied. Like, I even did a stint in customer services. When I was living in New Zealand, I've done sales like very early in my career. And I think that kind of gives me a bit of a unique insight to try and pull together the full customer journey, not just like looking at some of the data, and making decisions based on that. So it's pretty easy for folks that are in more kind of strategic role is to look at data and be like, clearly, this is what we should do. But it's like, Have you actually gone and sat down and listened to a customer services call to understand what's driving some of this? No, probably not, go and do that.
Tom Ollerton 5:53
So we're now going to talk about your shiny new object, which has a strange title that we've agreed on, which is B2B push and pull. So what is that? Can you give the audience just an overview of what you mean by that, and then we'll get into it?
Victoria Kerr 6:09
Sure. I feel like B2B is a bit of a dirty word. So the push and the pull for me is really about I think, if I think about b2b marketing, which has kind of traditionally been, I think, a bit of a poor cousin from the consumer, from the consumer, folks, there's two parts to it, or at least this for me is the push and the pull. So one is like, I think we're seeing a lot of innovation on the more traditional kind of demand generation side of things that folks have, you know, kind of Salesforce or Squarespace, Superbowl ads, like doing really kind of cool, innovative things, I'm sure based on data to be able to grow awareness and consideration and that kind of thing. So I think there's some really promising things coming out of that. So that for me is the push. And then the pull is actually I think we're seeing a real emergence of b2b marketers talking directly to end users to really kind of drive consideration and salience within the folks actually using their product. So if we think about that, in a U4B, Uber for business type context, that's talking directly to business riders, so that they understand to like, toggle over onto their business profile, and that we educate them on all the benefits of doing that. And then Uber for business becomes an integral part of any business trip as an example.
Tom Ollerton 7:17
So first off, got to jump back one step, why is b2b a dirty word?
Victoria Kerr 7:22
I don't know, I don't think... a dirty word is maybe too strong. But I do think like I say, we've kind of been the poor cousin, or maybe we haven't seen enough innovation come out of kind of our sector of marketing, as we have with some of our kind of consumer counterparts. And I really think that that is starting to change. Frankly, I think like I say, we're seeing a lot more innovation with kind of digital tools like demand base with, you know, kind of essentially, I think, working more and more with our consumer colleagues to understand what might be working, what might not be working, and where we can learn from there as well. I just think it's an area that hasn't been that sexy for a long time. So I'm kind of glad that we're making it shinier.
Tom Ollerton 8:03
So if someone's listening to this. And they're like, right, okay, I've always just gone directly to procurement or gone straight to the person who signs the check. But what you're saying is actually, you need to make the product and the service appeal to the end user that the license would benefit. So if someone's like, Yes, I should do that. What are the steps to get started? And what are the common problems you have with that approach?
Victoria Kerr 8:26
I think I mean, you can't neglect the first audience, right? The folks that are making the buying decisions, that's like 101, otherwise, you're not going to get it in the door. But I think the the key kind of the thing you need to crack is who are the people that you're talking to. So when it comes to the end users, so really making sure that you've got all the insights on the folks that will be using your product, whether you're kind of a designer using a you know, design software, whether you're a business traveler using Uber for business, we have the benefit here, obviously, of having an abundance of data and understanding, certainly on the right side of the business, kind of like trends and that kind of thing. So it could be that we're looking at our data and saying, okay, these particular these segments of people are taking eight airport trips in a month. Well, if they're doing that kind of like Tuesday to Thursday, there's a high propensity that they'll probably be a business user. So then we can start to think about how we might want to engage with them as a business user, so that they can potentially use Uber for business.
Tom Ollerton 9:26
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with Madfest. Whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from Madfest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com
What is the action you want that end user to take? Is it like go and hassle procurement, you need to close that loop? Right? So you've got your be sort of your top down your awareness, whether that's a Superbowl ad or something less audacious and you're creating that awareness and the consideration of you as a service for the b2b buyer, but then you're you're putting out content or advertising to the to the people who will be using that service. What do you want them to do? Is it like is it apply for something? Help me understand how you finally squished those two approaches together, the push and the pull..
Victoria Kerr 10:36
So I think with new orgs, it's about reducing friction in a sales cycle. So if you know folks know about you that's significantly easier, like I know, we're taught, we're having a data driven conversation. So unfortunately, I don't have any numbers to back that up. But I just think from a common sense, approach it, it makes life a lot easier. Also, for us on our side we're a variable model basically so it's, you know, if people don't use us, we don't make any money essentially. So we want to make sure that folks know when they're on a trip to come over to Uber for business, and it might be, we add value through different things. So in the UK, for example, you can get like Avios points, we also have like streamline, expensing, like I don't want to give you the sales pitch on it. But there are there are advantages to, to using Uber for business, which we want our end users to understand. And then it plays into, you know, one, making sure that that usage is there. And two, if it's actually really adopted by a business kind of churn is much less likely and that kind of thing.
Tom Ollerton 11:27
So who does this well? Who do you look up to, in this push and pull? Are you looking at, you mentioned Squarespace or Salesforce? Who are your heroes in this space? And has it ever worked on you?
Victoria Kerr 11:40
Has it ever worked on me? Not that I can think of, but maybe they've done a really good job, and I don't know. And look, the best example I think I've seen of this is actually by Heinz. So Heinz have like an out of home category. So like the trade side of it. And I think it was actually an entry into intercom, I'm not sure if it won or not. But in the US, they did work with agency partners, and they did an activation where end users so customers like you or I could go into like a diner or restaurant. And if they didn't have Heinz, they weren't served Heinz, they could add a tip to the bill asking like I would pay more for Heinz for like $1. And then they put it on social and then they the customer got reimbursed for that. So you're basically the customer is sending a signal to that establishment, like I would like Heinz. So that's the kind of the pull side of it the more end user engagement, actually, this is what I want. And then they followed that up with some of the more traditional tactics from a marketing and sales perspective, whether it was like a lot of outbound to those those establishments to basically sell them Heinz. So I think it was a really smart use of kind of creating that momentum within the customer base, and them then capturing that through more kind of traditional b2b motions.
Tom Ollerton 12:46
Oh, that's so clever. Gosh, and what was the scale of that? Like, I can see the case study with the ukulele backing track about like, and some good looking people in Californian cafe somewhere, bemoaning the fact that I haven't got ketchup. I'm somewhat dubious of definitely anything that wins an award. I'm like, really? Did that actually happen? Was that a scale? Or was that do you think it was just a localized test?
Victoria Kerr 13:09
Well, I think I mean, define scale, right, according to the case study and you can take it up with them, whether it's whether it's accurate or not, I think it I think anyway, it was through New York and Chicago, and they spent, I think they reimbursed like 125k or something like that in tips, which, you know, depending on what your definition of scale is, I don't think is any mean feat, right?
Tom Ollerton 13:29
Okay. You can have that, Heinz.
Okay, so you're talking about innovation, you're seeing brands through Superbowl ads, you've got this really creative stuff where you, people like Heinz are activating the end user to force a b2b decision. Where do you see this going? Like, if we do this podcast again, in in a year or two years, you say, with the with the less popular the unsexiest side of the marketing coin? What are your predictions for how b2b marketing and b2c start going to look starting to look a bit more similar?
Victoria Kerr 14:09
I mean, I think that's just it, I think they will start to look more similar. So, you know, many of us, not everyone, but many of us are employed, many of us work for businesses or are self employed. And so I think there's just going to be less division of kind of like consumer versus business, essentially, I think, if you look at some of the trends in kind of heading back to office and working from home and digital nomads, and that kind of thing, I think the lines just blur. So increasingly, I think we're gonna see b2b leaning more on what would probably have traditionally been perceived as more b2c channels. If you think about, like metta, for example, that kind of stuff. I mean, we already use it, but, you know, I just think there's going to be more and more innovation around that space to be like, Why should we? Why should it only be like, Hey, we're just gonna send you direct mail to your office like, I think we can just be smarter about it.
Tom Ollerton 14:54
It reminds me I was in a in a chat for another show that we do called advertisers watching ads and there was one of the guests in that chat was incredulous that they'd been targeted to buy a fancy car on LinkedIn, they were like why on earth is Daimler or someone like that advertising a car to me? And I thought, yeah, that's totally ridiculous. But then someone in the group suggested, well, actually, this time of year is bonus season, right? So on LinkedIn, you can target very specifically, I don't need to tell you this, how good targeting on LinkedIn is, and experience, location, seniority, and so on. So actually, a car ad at this time of year is great, but it doesn't feel right to, you know, there's nothing particularly premium about that, about that ad, other than it's just got the logo in there, or is that just maybe in a tradition traditionalist? And so I'm curious to know, like, if people are likely to do b2c on more traditional b2b channels, like how did you that well, and vice versa, so you're a b2b marketer thinking, wow, Uber business? They're out there. They're using Meta, like, how do you show up in a social platform where people are used to, like a tick tock style experience? You know, like, how do you show up that without being the kind of square b2b brand,
Victoria Kerr 16:06
I think it goes back to knowing your audience, right, and making sure the targeting is right. And then making sure that you're talking about relevant stuff for them. And we also have the benefit of Uber of having a massive consumer brand. So obviously, I think that helps us and we're able to leverage that. So it's, it's probably less, it probably feels like less of a step for us than it might if you were like Cisco, for example, or somebody that's more kind of super, super traditional, like b2b. We're all still learning. Like, you know, I'm not saying we've got it nailed by any stretch of the imagination. But I think that's the important thing. And that's one of the kind of, you know, great things about working at Uber is that you should test and learn and try and see what happens. And then, you know, as long as you're learning, let's keep going.
Tom Ollerton 16:47
That's a beautiful way to finish it. Thank you so much. So if anyone wants to get in touch with you, where is the best place to do that? And what makes a great push and pull outreach to you?
Victoria Kerr 16:57
Well, as a traditional b2b Girl, I would say LinkedIn is probably the best place to be going. Yeah, a good outreach is, I know your audience context, and not a sales pitch.
Tom Ollerton 17:10
Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time.
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