Lines AI Can't Write with Secret Escapes' Pete Durant

You might think you have the best brand in the world, but what does it look like among everything else? How are people reacting to it? AI cannot walk the aisles at Sainsbury's and that's part of what makes the human input so valuable, according to Pete Durant.

Our latest podcast guest is the Interim Head of Brand and Marketing EU at Secret Escapes, but more than that, he is "a brand marketing director and a broader leader that focuses predominantly on story as being the unique proposition that you have with customers."

Pete reminds marketers that the story is the single best tools marketers have in digital or offline marketing. He tells us why we should focus less on data, be ruthless with bullet points, and always look for actionable insights. And he reassures us on the importance of human input as AI is used extensively in marketing.

But how is the job funnel working to continue to attract junior marketers if we outsource so much to AI? What do marketers still have control of in the world of Google's Performance Max and Meta's intent black box? How can you stand out?

Lots of the answers, and many more questions, on the podcast.

The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.

Pete Durant 0:00
AI is only as good as the prompt you put in. Yes, AI can do loads of things, but actually ensuring the human value add is being able to see that nuance and look between the lines.

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Tom Ollerton 0:49
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, and this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing every week or so, I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our industry's leaders about their vision for the future of our industry, and this week is absolutely no different. I'm on a call with Pete Durant, who is interim head of brand at Secret Escapes. So Pete, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do? Can you give us a bit of background?

Pete Durant 1:23
So I'm a 20 year plus veteran within the Content Marketing World who began being a writer and online producer of video content way back when video was just on websites and an online sub editor at a national newspaper, to being one of the first and leading voices in social media in the UK, and then eventually becoming to a brand marketing director and a broader leader that focuses predominantly on story as being the unique proposition that you have with customers.

Tom Ollerton 2:01
So we met, I'm trying to work out how long ago it was, and we were both on the IAB's social media council, like 15 years ago or something like that. It must be getting mostly getting on that long.

Pete Durant 2:14
We need to do a reunion, and we need to see how haggard we've all become.

Tom Ollerton 2:20
But the interesting thing about those meetings was, you know, you had all these kind of heads of social or, like, founders talking about social. And I think the underlying current was no one really has a clue what exactly is going on or how it's going to pan out, but everyone was pretending the opposite was true. And I'm definitely seeing that again with AI, that everyone's like, yeah, yeah. Everyone's throwing shapes trying to show that they're the master of it. But no, no one can imagine what's going to happen. I think they can guess, obviously. So yeah, it sounds like you have a similar view.

Pete Durant 2:52
Yeah, definitely. I think you know you you knew what was happening there and then, you could be an expert there and then, but you couldn't really throw forward and understand the sort of really technological advances that would happen, or what humanity would do to itself on some of these platforms where, even though you, you, you, yeah, I started, and I was on working at a teenage virtual world called Habbo Hotel, and this was before Twitter was even a thing. So that gives you a bit of ageing for some people. And we were doing social marketing, we were using community, and actually a lot of the things that we were doing there, and a lot of principles actually still hold true today. And then you just had all of these new... yeah, you have Facebook came along, and that was Facebook before advertising. That was Twitter, when you organically could win. So you build your organic teams, then paid came along, the algorithm was squeezed that changed things. So there was lots of things where you were slightly beholden to things that weren't in your control. You could be an expert for there and then, and actually, for those of us who were practitioning, then you learn a lot about people and about customers, about what people liked and didn't like, how to listen and how to really understand what a customer first outlook looks like, because often just your brand stuff wasn't really up to scratch. But I think the main difference with AI is that social was quite honed in on certain platforms, and you were beholden to them, whereas AI is this ubiquitous tool that can be used in so many different ways, so it Feels much bigger, much quicker, much more of a much more impactful, I think, on jobs, on much more broader things in society. I think, even down to how you legislate for deep fakes. How do you build a legal case on a. Video that may or may not be true, or someone can claim or claim not to be true. Whereas, I think with social, it's had, obviously, absolutely massive impact, but has then sort of settled embedded in a little bit, I think.

Tom Ollerton 5:15
Yeah, there definitely seems to be more hesitancy around AI. Whereas social at that period when we first connected, it was just like, throw yourself into it. You know? It was like, there wasn't any centre that could possibly go wrong, because it was just so much fun. It was so so nice.

Pete Durant 5:31
Yeah, it was a media channel. I think that's the difference. Is that it was a media channel, whereas, as I said, AI is a tool that's kind of ubiquitous across everything. You know, we hadn't done our our selves a disservice on Twitter and became just realising the I think what social did, really was it showed us for our humanity and about how we started to define ourselves. And I think before that, we thought that we use things to define our identity in different... in certain ways, and then we realised that our hatred for something, our anger, was actually what we really predominantly use to define our identity. If I'm angry about that, that makes me look like this type of person, and I think that that that sort of, I don't think we probably will probably unpack that we thought, you know, friends reunited, connect with people, share some nice pictures, see if someone's had a kid or not, turned into, I am outraged, which is kind of how I see a lot of that sort of social area. And then, obviously, we kind of then settled back into some nicer pieces. You know, the Facebooks in this world now are more about community groups and that you can actually connect with people, and then you can build small, passionate areas around, say, veganism in Plymouth, and that's a fantastic tool for doing that, which you wouldn't have had that connection before. You know, Instagram is still almost the advertising aside, still a little bit more like a glossy magazine and a content platform, which the other platforms weren't so and, you know, and Tiktok is a content platform in its own way. So it feels like it feels like it kind of had this wave. It became a teenager to figure out what it was going to be. And that's kind of where it's sort of settled. And I think ultimately it's settled back into humans being humans, what drives us, what drives our needs, and that has become a tool for what that is, because I remember way back in the day someone said the reason that social media was successful and apologies for not remembering who this was, but the reason it was successful is because it played into a deep human need for gossip, wanting to see what Someone else was like, what they were doing, how they were acting, whereas health apps and your, you know, your trackable bracelet and all that sort of wearable tech, a lot of the time it gets bored, gets used a little bit and gets put in a drawer because that tells you that you're overweight, you're unfit, you haven't actually been doing the workout that you promised yourself you would do, and that plays onto something that we don't want, we don't want to be told that we're wrong and bad and that sort of thing, whereas social media was very much about that need for gossip, that need for defining ourselves publicly according to what we think is wrong, and that's why it's stuck around. So I think that's where I think that is interesting, and I think it was media, and it's boomed as an industry, and has changed certain content types you might make and things like that, but I don't think it is going to have as fundamental impact as the tool of AI, if anything, social created jobs. I don't see that being the same with with artificial intelligence.

Tom Ollerton 9:17
So I would love to carry on talking about the relationship between the two and the differences. However, I need to ask you, what new belief or behaviour in the last five years has improved your work life, given all of these interesting things you've been doing with your time.

Pete Durant 9:36
I've just created a Pete bot. He does everything and I just go to the beach every day. No, I think, I think the, if I could do that, I certainly would be a lot richer and be doing that for lots of people. But no, I think the, I think the main, I think the main thing, and it might be age, it might be changing family setup and having a daughter and things like that. Yeah, but I think really, perspective has been a major change, and a major thing that's enabled me to approach things differently, where being your job and your career not as really the thing that can define you, but an understanding that it isn't the most important thing in the world. And I think moving out of London was a huge shift for me, and that happened in what that was a mid covid move. So was that 2020, or something like that, and actually getting out of the London bubble, and what and how you kind of see life within London. And having the perspective of working for businesses outside of London really has given me a different perspective, not only about work, work life relationship, but also actually how you approach that job, what's important, what you have access to, and actually what 90 95% of the businesses around the country live on a day to day business basis. And I think that's that's been really sort of an interesting shift for me, and I think alongside that, and I think this is something that not a lot of people will do because they don't think they need it, or they see something like therapy as being something when you are when you've suffered a trauma or a need or something, but going through a journey of self discovery about what really motivates you. The core level, not at a work level, but just as a person, and doing the work to understand why you've made certain choices, what you need, what what that thing is that actually really motivates you. I think doing that work and understanding that a lot better gives you, again, a different perspective, gives you a different work life balance, and I think helps you and takes you out of situations that you might linger on, or might really affect you, or might really affect your life on a short term or then potentially on a long term basis. So you know that is like work cultures, small things at work that might irritate you that over a year, could ladder up and be a you know, if it was an itch, it could become a sore sort of thing, and really understanding about what it is you need from work, rather than it just being, I'm being hired to come in and do this so that you can make the right choices, work at the right place and be a better person in that community. That is work. And I think actually, that understanding of what motivates you, and with that understanding of how you get energy, how you don't get energy, understanding that that perspective to maybe let things go when you previously wouldn't. And then also, yeah, doing stuff like asking yourself, will I care about this when I'm 70? Am I going to remember this? And if I do, would it be a sad thing if I remember this? Or do I just let this go and just let it be and, you know, change my my view to another view, and just keep on moving forward. So I think the past five years, I think that the ability to give a bit of perspective, the ability to understand yourself, of what works for you and not works for you, so you put yourself in the right situations, and then have the ability to react to situations in a different way, has helped to also build things like resilience, because last five years for marketers has been horrific. In my entire career, even though you've had economic blips, it's nothing has been as bad as the last five years, and still is. Some companies are still feeling the impact of covid. Some people are definitely still feeling the impact of the dreadful Liz Truss and Kamikaze Kwarteng's budget and and I think that ability, that resilience and that perspective is has been a real saving grace, I think, the last five years.

Tom Ollerton 14:19
So I'm going to drag you down into the minutiae now from that broader perspective, and thank you for being so honest and sharing that. And will I remember this when I'm 70? I'm going to write that on the wall. Brilliant. But what is your very direct bit of advice for someone who wants to become a better data driven marketer?

Pete Durant 14:38
I would say, don't call yourself a data driven marketer, that would be my first one. I think, I think that the key part is being an insight driven marketer. For me, it's about we all at times and will drown in numbers and in data and in information, and actually now it is the worst it's ever been about just getting loads of. Stuff thrown at you, being a data driven marketer is either depending on your seniority level, being able to actually pull out what the Insight is and really focusing around that, or working with people and creating an environment and enabling your team to have the skill set and the time to pull out those insights to help you make those decisions. Because I think, you know, you can just drown. You can just it can be overwhelming if you got a 30 page PowerPoint on all of the data that week. I mean, what are you going to get from that? You'll just get blind from it. But you know, for me, and probably my seniority level, is, what are the three or four bullet points that I need to know? What are the things that we're really going to action? So I think so, I think it's that, that insight piece and creating an environment and the process that allows that, and then I think the other side of it is as a part that process and environment is actually also to trust your gut, which is, seems mad, right? It seems mad that a data driven marketer, or an insight driven marketer, would trust their gut. But I think there is a little bit of that that's gone a little bit from the industry where, you know, the extremes of it is someone saying, I'm going to go and sponsor England football because I like football and I don't need any data. Obviously, we're not talking about that. But you know, there is marketing theory, there is there are things that you will know about your audience that other people won't know, trusting your gut, but setting that trust, combining it with insight, and combining it with a way that you can have a hypothesis and go and try and test it and prove it. That's the magic for me. We're in a world now where you can think something, get an email out there and AB test it and just see if that works. What's the feedback? Does you know? What can we do? Can we put some social ads out have three so different creatives and see which one works best and what one does, and that's what you can really jump into. So I think, so I think for me, it's, it's, yeah, it's insight, it's processes and environment. It's being able to test and then I think it's being able to dive into those pools where you are more confident, and being able to then deep dive and get that those real beautiful nuggets of gold at the bottom of the well that you can pick out because of your expertise. So for me, that would always be, I remember at Endemol Shine, we had an absolutely wonderful team, that absolutely wonderful team of brilliant creatives and marketers who have all gone on to do brilliant stuff. And what we were able to do there, from a data point of view, and we dive deep into this because we're creatives, at heart was to find that people were dropping off of we were building community, and wanted people to watch more content of Big Brother, which is an example. And we so we wanted more watches, more view time, more minutes. And we found that people were dropping off sometimes, at certain points. And we did a test, and we sort of said, Right, what's the hypothesis on this video, and it was a chap was coming out to the group, and he was sharing his sexuality they hadn't done with his parents, and he was doing it in big brother so mate, from a TV point of view, an amazing moment and an amazing clip to put online. In the TV version, they went very close to him. Maybe it was a mid short or a mid close up and it was really emotional. There was tears. They clipped to a couple of other people in the group. They were mid close ups really, really emotional scene. You felt that you were in this group, friendship group, in the TV the way that they edited it was they then pan to the group as a wide shot. And in TV, you understand that you want the group setting, and that's a kind of well known technique of editing for TV, gives you perspective of the scene and the surroundings. We suppose, from looking at the data and actually going into the creative and saying, what do we want to do and what's happening, we could see people dropping off. And we... the hypothesis was people will drop off when we clip when we if we clip this up and let it be like TV, people will drop off when you cut to the wide shot of the group, because actually online as a different, basically diet. I think of it as a dialect. You both speak in English, but you both sound very different, and you different, and use different words sometimes, and sometimes you use the same words, and you they will drop off and they'll leave the video, because actually on in digital when you click to a wide like that, after being so close and personal, what that's telling you is it's the end of the video. It takes you out of the emotional situation. It takes you out of the phone, that kind of intimate phone relationship, one on one, and it becomes less relevant and more boring. And lo and behold, that's what happened. So then we said, right, our hypothesis is right. Let's do it again on something else, and it was right. And then we moved forward, and we never did that again, and we created our own language. So So for me, that last point about being a good, data driven marketer is, you know, set those things up, support yourself with good people, and in the areas where you feel strongest, that's the areas for you to go and deep dive. That's the areas for you to go in and do that, and then you can find that sort of stuff and be involved in the process. So I think it's a little bit more nuanced than just I have to know all of the data and all of this. I think it's about understanding where you're at, where your specialism is, and being able to have a kind of more layered approach to it.

Tom Ollerton 20:56
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with Mad fest, whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect a distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from Mad fest events. You'll find me causing trouble on stage, recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www dot madfest london.com.

Tom Ollerton 21:33
So we're going to talk now about your shiny new object, which is Meta's intent black box. What is that? And why is it your shiny new object?

Pete Durant 21:44
You can order it for now. £9.99, postage and packing is free. No. So basically, recently Meta presented to us and said, Look, they're kind of in Google. You have Performance Max, which is their black box, where they find your customers, they do all of the work, and they, you know, it's all done without you defining your audience. And the meta idea is that you don't even put travel interests or anything like that, they will literally find someone who is somewhere on the journey of booking or buying something, and that's your audience, and they will find it so you could do brand marketing and basically have zero wastage, so that you can ensure that you're always talking to someone who is in market. But you could, that could be early stage, and that could be closer so your CPA campaigns might pick them up, or it might be that your brand ad is served, or you have sequencing of messaging depending on where they are. Why that is my shiny new object is less about it itself, but it's sort of what that for me, triggers, and what that makes me think of. So think of it as a you know, if you some people might put a picture up and that reminds them of a happy holiday, and that might bring them down from being stressed or things like that. What this reminds me of is actually the need and the craft for creative and how now it is just as important it was when you were doing a Guinness ad in the 80s. The tools that we have as marketers are becoming less and less and that's one of the AI things that has driven is the lot of this stuff is the lifting. You kind of upload it and you let it go, and with Performance Max, I found that in a previous role, a activewear fashion house, sustainable active wear fashion house, I should say, called Bamboo Clothing. So if you want some really good nature based activewear, go and have a look at Bamboo clothing.co.uk. They'll be happy for the plug. But with Performance Max, it always optimises towards the thing that's going to drive the most acquisitions. So when, if you are a company that brings in new product, the new product never really works. And I've always been a bit because of that, you kind of have to force stuff, and you and you kind of got to have to build your campaigns in a different way. And the promise is never, always quite as it's given. And with the Meta thing, it's like, if that takes it all away. What is the thing that I actually have control of? In Performance Max is maybe the text and so that's creative, in Meta is really all about the video and the creative that I'm putting out there, and it's the craft, and it's the messaging. Why I think is really important is because actually, when you think about it, the thing that you're really talking a lot about is not marketing, how we're going to do this, and the buttons we're going to press, and this number and that number, it's really about, I'm talking to a human, and I want a human to do this thing, and what is the best creative and the best stories that I can do, and that is my single most important tool that I have across the digital space and on the and on the offline space. And it's kind of, for me, it's really lovely to kind of push that around full circle, to to be able to do that, and to be able to really focus and ask ourselves the question about any brand's messaging. And I exclude big brands the likes of, you know, the Red Bulls and the Coca Colas and things like that, because they, as I said, the perspective outside of London is that most businesses are smaller, they have smaller budgets. They can't be on TV all the time, and have sponsorships, and, you know, be everywhere to everyone they need every every penny to really work hard for them. And actually, for me, being from a creative background, if for me, it feels like actually that really nailing your story, really understand how you're fulfilling a customer's need, how you are beating and and defeating the customer's enemy, and doing that and finding the right studio production processes, creative becomes really important again, so that that's kind of my my shiny object is kind of almost the thing that makes me think about actually, where we are in the industry. And we talked about AI before, and essentially, this is an AI tool, and that's kind of sparks me off around, I guess, the view on AI and specifically within creative and I've got lots of thoughts that we could probably have a good natter over. But one of them is, AI is only as good as the prompt you put in, and AI is still very good at is good at responding to that prompt. It's not really thinking around your prompt or your brief. Shall we call prompt? Is essentially a brief, and it's not really giving you the nuance. And that's where I think the combination of tools is actually we as marketers. I think if you're if you've worked in a creative agency or media agency, or you've worked in that side of things, you get briefs from marketing teams, and the briefs sometimes, and a lot of times, never really, it's like they're not asking you the question because they don't know what the question is they need to ask. And what you spend time doing is kind of working, digging and really reframing the brief according to what truly is needed, or what you've worked with the team, the client team, to really understand about themselves, or to question or to challenge, to sort of reframe that brief for yourself, not to make it an easier brief, but just to make it something that helps them understand what they do. And that's the value you add. And I think about that, and I think about really, traditionally, marketers are not very good briefers, and yet, AI is relying on prompts and briefs. So I think there is a whole generation, or a whole education system, I think, around making people better at briefing, and then there's a watch. Is that, yes, AI can do loads of things, but actually ensuring that the human value add is being able to see that nuance and look between the lines. So I think that that's kind of when and when I think of that creative and that relationship and the noise that you get on LinkedIn or professional networks about some things, that's the kind of value of I've got this bit of data great that relates to a prompt brief, but really is or a prompt. But how are we adding that quality control to help define that brief? How do we make people enter a briefing which essentially is becoming prompting in a new world?

Tom Ollerton 28:57
One thing, there's a there's an interesting, parallel... I don't know any link back to what you were saying before about getting out of London and seeing the world from a different perspective, and that also related to not being a data driven marketer, but from an insight driven marketer, right? And all an AI is being trained on is what has happened in digital right? It doesn't have any real world experience. And you've really got me thinking there, that that is its weakness, right? That it can't walk through Sainsbury's. I mean, it can't sit on the terraces, it can't sit in the traffic jam. It can't unload the Christmas shop and into the back of a Corsa, or whatever it is, you know, it just can't experience those things. And I did some research recently for a book, and so I think was Tiffany Rolfe at R/GA said that the great thing about intuition is it gets better as you get older, because you have more data if we have more lived experience, right, you know, so the instincts of a 21 year old creative director is, in some ways, far different to like a 60 year old creative director, or, you know, insert whatever job title you want, because they've just had much more data going into their heads and that's such a pressing issue, isn't it, that if you've got a brief from a brand and it just gets responded to by a chipper LLM telling them that it's great and how insightful it is when, in actual fact, you do need a human who has stood at a bus stop in the rain understanding what it means to wear a pair of Nikes to be able to go. Is that really the brief? So you've got me thinking there Pete.

Pete Durant 30:33
So I'll give you a really great example of that. So at Secret Escapes, we've been looking at how you know our story and we are, yeah, we've created a studio, so we're creating lots of content across digital ads and things like that, and we're responding to data, and we've had really great successes by doing that. And as a part of that sort of project, I was thinking about our overall branding and our overall story, and the kind of core of Secret Escapes. And this isn't a plug for Secret Escapes, but it helps it but it helps explain the story. The secret escapes is brilliant because you get outrageously bookable deals on four or five star hotels and packages. And the reason that they are these deals are so outrageous, and we believe and they are the best deals on the web is because we put them behind. You have to be a member. It's a free membership. It has to be a member. You have to be a member. And the way that we used to explain that and say, Well, why? Why do you get these deals? And why is because even the best hotels have empty beds naturally, like a fashion house would have a sale at the end to clear their warehouse. They have they have distressed infantry, which they can never replace, right? Eventually you might be able to sell a t shirt, but once that Friday night room has gone, it's gone, and you won't get that money. So what they do, and the way that secret escapes works, is that they these, these fantastic partners of ours, and these hotels slip us phenomenal deals. And essentially, you know, are they too good to be true? No, they're just too good to be public. And that is all goes back to the fact, and the truth is that every hotel has empty bets, and they want to fill them, and they don't want it to be public because they don't want the kind of core prices that they sell to be to be public. So I was kind of looking at our story and stuff, and we used to use this term, you know, even the best hotels have empty beds, oh, do they? Yes, that feels very corporate, that feels much more about us. And I was sat in a pub and a couple of friends of mine, because I joined last September said, Oh, and where are you at? You know, you got a new, new role. And, yeah, yeah, I'm doing, um, doing some work down at secret escapes. And they said, Well, what's, what's the deal with secret escapes? And I said, I said, what we did. And I said, and the reason is, and they said, why is that? And how do you get the deals? And I said, even the best hotels have empty beds. And I saw their eyes light up. It was that genuine moment where they just went, I get it. I completely understand that they they need, you know, they need people to stay at their hotel, and it's time sensitive. And that's, that's why a partner like you is so valuable to them. If I'd have gone to an AI and said, Oh, this is what we're saying. Do you think it works? You know, and all of this, it says, Is there a better way of saying it? I might have got different ways of sort of telling our brand story, but I wouldn't have had that kind of core experience of just being able to see the whites of the eyes of someone as their eyes lit up. Of I get this, I get that, and for me to go away and go, Oh, God, that line works. My God, I need to make sure that we use this line and we put this into our comms. So I think, I think it's those experiences, as you said, walking down Sainsbury's and seeing your product next to someone else's product, yeah, you might think you've got the best branding in the world, and on paper and literal sticker paper on a jar. It looks great. But what does it look like amongst everything else? How are people reacting to it? How you know, it's that, it's those bits that, I think, is where the human will always provide value, unless technology moves on such a pace. And that's why I think it's really, really important. And I think Tom You said, Sorry, really, really interesting as well, about the creative director at 21 versus the Creative Director at 60, or whatever role it might be, I have a genuine worry about how the market. It is going to look even 10 years from now, in that the way that some businesses, from why here, or what I read, are seeing AI is a great way to get a lot of the jobs done. And, you know, I think we were discussing before about, you know, doing hours for timesheets, but in design, I've seen really amazing AI tools that can do fantastic design work and and that is the design work probably done by junior designer. So what you're seeing is you've got a lot of senior really brilliant designers at a top end now using tools that mean that you don't need a junior designer. So first of all, there's a worry about, how are we going to get people into the industry so that in 10, 15, 20 years from now, you have the experience to be able to make a judgement on what has been produced by an AI. You're not going to have that experience of doing, learning, judging, getting it right, getting it wrong, and the people at the top are going to go and retire. So I think that, from a copy point of view, I think we'll have a lot of sub editors rather than writers, but I do worry about that sort of entry level, and then people learning, and then what happens when the top end drop out? That is when you said that that just kind of triggered a triggered a thought about how we as an industry, ensure that we keep, we keep people coming through the funnel.

Tom Ollerton 36:45
There's just literally so many things I want to ask you, but this podcast has gone on literally twice as long as any of the podcasts I've done in the last three years, which is a massive testament to the quality. And so I want to apologise, but also say thank you. We've got to leave it there. We'd love you to do a follow up on this at some point, but it's been genuinely reaffirming and exciting to be back in touch with you after a very long period of time. Thank you so much. If someone wants to get in touch with you about any of this, where's a good place and what makes a message that you'll respond to?

Pete Durant 37:18
LinkedIn is probably the best place, because you can find me reasonably easily and just, just come and say hello. Don't open with a pitch for your tool. First of all, just come and say hello. I think one of the big things is I wish we haven't done since covid as much, I think, is really lean back into community and talking with like minded people. And I think we need to, as an industry, make sure that we do all of that as we live in a remote, hybrid world. So yeah, just come and say hello. Make sure that if I accept you, don't send me a message one minute afterwards, because it's automated. But so yeah, just come and say hello. And let's have a chat.

Tom Ollerton 38:05
Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time.

Pete Durant 38:07
No problem. Thanks for having me.

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