Episode 213 / Azeem Ahmad / ASSA ABLOY Group / Digital Marketing Lead
Diversity & Inclusion: How to Adopt Them Genuinely in Marketing
As the Digital Marketing Lead at ASSA ABLOY Group, Azeem Ahmad does more than just steer the brand’s marketing strategy and put together all the pieces of the puzzle that make up a successful advertising and marketing plan. His work, beyond the day-to-day, focuses on diversity and inclusion - not a Shiny New Object per se, but an important element of brand strategy that is often consigned to one month a year.
April is Diversity Awareness Month and the time of year we usually see lots of marketing initiatives from brands showcasing how open and inclusive they are. However, browse any job adverts and you’ll see so much information sorely missing. From the elusive “competitive salary” that leads to people from certain backgrounds being criminally underpaid, to a lack of commitment to diversity and inclusion in how a company conducts its business, Azeem warns us that not all claims to be diverse are genuine.
Just like Thiago Gomes, Product Marketing Lead - EMEA at Meta, spoke about on the last podcast episode, diversity is a key driver for innovation and performance. Moreover, companies who fail to address a diverse market “leave money on the table.” Underrepresented people from all backgrounds have a sizable amount of money to spend - according to Azeem, the disposable income of minority ethnic groups is around £252 billion per annum currently, and forecasted to increase to £16.7 trillion by 2061.
Still, only 7% of UK ads feature people of colour. 60% of people in the LGBTQ+ community do not feel safe being out at work. And the list of worrying statistics goes on. So, what can a brand who wants to change the game do about this, seizing a financial opportunity as well as diversifying and improving their workforce and their client base?
According to Azeem, the first thing every business should do is ensure that their bonuses are directly linked to their diversity and inclusion initiatives. Last week, Thiago warned us that diversity budgets are the first to go when the economy isn’t doing great. This week, Azeem tells us that there is no growth without pain, so companies need to accept the potential “pain” if they want to grow.
Secondly, more transparency is required for diversity data, especially looking at the gender and race pay gaps. And diversity information should be included in job postings. Conferences that bring together marketers and business leaders need to do more to diversify their line-up and to pay their speakers fairly. Finally, when working to improve diversity in your company, don’t just hire a consultant or someone who has a D&I job title, but no power to effect change. Azeem says: “Give people responsibility, but also give them the tools and the equipment and the funds, ultimately, that they will need to perform their job to the best of their ability.”
Find out more about including diversity in your company in earnest and listen to Azeem’s top marketing tips, on the latest episode here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Azeem Ahmad 0:00
Stop relying on industry benchmarks to use your data or to ground your strategy. Not everybody behaves in exactly the same way.
Tom Ollerton 0:08
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative and this is a weekly podcast about the future of the marketing and advertising industries. I am the geezer who gets to interview one of our industry's leaders each week on a call and this week is certainly no different. I'm on a call with Azeem Ahmad, who is digital marketing lead at ASSA ABLOY. Azeem, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, and what you do, can you give us a bit of background?
Azeem Ahmad 1:41
No problem at all. Thank you very much for having me. So yeah, my name is Azeem Ahmad, as you mentioned digital marketing lead at ASSA ABLOY. And my career has been quite varied. I started off agency side. I was at i-prospect for a number of years or Dentsu as it's now known. I was very solely focused on PPC and paid media. Throughout my career, they progressed from the other hands dirty work into strategy, account management and everything else. But very quickly realized that PPC and Google ads is not the be all and end all. So I decided to try and branch out and look elsewhere. I looked at other forms of paid media. So I moved from an agency to in house in the UK staycation market looked at pretty much everything paid. If you could pay to put an ad on there I could and then carried on thinking right? Well, again, this isn't the the size of the world. What else is there, then I moved in house again to university - Staffordshire University, spent a couple of years there looking at pretty much everything very heavily sort of strategy involved in trying to put all of the pieces together in terms of digital marketing. And after a few years I have arrived at ASSA ABLOY, and I've just passed my two year anniversary, I believe. So now I pretty much look after everything and anything and a lot of it is heavily organic and SEO focused, so I'm very slowly putting together all of the pieces of the puzzle, I would like to say.
Tom Ollerton 3:15
That is one of the more unusual career stories we've had on the podcast. I'm very interested to hear what you got to say. So first off, whether you stay in ASSA ABLOY for the rest of your career, or you move on to other places. And as an older gentleman, how do you want people to remember your career?
Azeem Ahmad 3:31
So I would love for people to remember my career as the person who couldn't get a seat at certain tables, but went out of his way to build tables for people like me to get a seat at. I'm very glad that I'd said that without being tongue tied. But ultimately, pretty much what I've just said there. And just someone who works works their backsides off trying to make others have the same or if not better opportunities than I had. I want to leave the industry in a better position than I found it ultimately.
Tom Ollerton 4:13
How did you find it?
Azeem Ahmad 4:15
Well, being brutally honest, not very... I can't think of the right word, not very welcoming. In terms of things that we'll discuss later on in the episode. I didn't I didn't see people that sort of look like myself. I didn't see people in senior positions in the industry, that that looked like me. I never thought when I started in the industry that no matter how much ambition I had would ever achieve, will get to a certain level that I saw people at so I often thought well, I can dwell on that, moan about it and not do anything about it, or I can try my absolute best to make sure that the next Azeem or the next person who has that feeling, ultimately doesn't feel that way and thinks it there is no ceiling for me. If I work hard, I can get to wherever I want to be, ultimately.
Tom Ollerton 5:15
That's a fighting ambition and fantastic to hear. So that's it early in the podcast. And we'll revisit that. But before we do get your shiny new object, what is the best marketing tip that you've heard? In all of those different very roles that you find yourself sharing most often?
Azeem Ahmad 5:30
Yeah, so this is a great question. And the best, the best thing that I've heard and learned is around benchmarking in the industry. I'm fortunate enough now that people, my colleagues, and people that I work with do not do this. But the tip is ultimately to stop relying on on industry benchmarks to use your data or to ground your strategy. So for example, I'm currently in the manufacturing sector, if we're looking at email, open rates, the benchmark might be Oh, it could only be X amount of percent, which is great as a starter for 10. But I am very much of the school of thought that those are nothing more than what should just generally be a footnote. What's more important is using your own data, your own customers data to understand how your marketing performs. So it's good to know that certain industries have a certain amount of percentages of open rates, or cost per click, or whatever the key metric may be, but I think they should be put to the side and relying on your own customers data, because not everybody behaves in exactly the same way.
Tom Ollerton 6:39
Unless of course, you're an agency and you're doing a case study film for an award entry and you need...
Azeem Ahmad 6:45
Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Ollerton 6:53
Right, so now we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is diversity and inclusion. So I told you off before we started recording, that's not a shiny new object anymore, but you're going to persuade me that it is.
Azeem Ahmad 7:04
Yes, absolutely. And if I can persuade you, at the very least, and I will have done my job. But in all seriousness, no, diversity inclusion is not a shiny new object. It's a topic that's been discussed for a number of years, certainly, in the almost 10 years that I've been in the industry that has been discussed. But I'd like to think by the end of this episode, that listeners will be able to actually start to do things that will will move the needle on this subject rather than a lot of the current situation, which I see, which is it's recognized and acknowledged, in some cases for up to a month. But there are there's more than 11. There's more than one month in the year, there's 11 more months in the year. And I'm hoping that after listening to this episode, when people press stop or carry on with their work, they think well, actually, I know now, I'm armed with facts, information, but more importantly, actual tactics and things that I can do to make the industry a better place. So that's what I'm hoping to achieve with this episode. And if I can convince you at the very least, then I think that I will have done that.
Tom Ollerton 8:12
I like the idea of facts, tactics and things. So let's have them.
Azeem Ahmad 8:16
Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of this, a lot of what I will discuss is going to be centered around financials and money and making businesses more money. Because ultimately, when I talk about diversity and inclusion, and a lot of it is grounded in cold, hard cash, people who I've had discussions with in the past, certainly on this topic, often disagree and think, Well, you shouldn't really talk about money because it's people's lives and everything else. But I'm hoping that with some of this information that I share with you now, you'll see where this comes from. So a lot of it will be focused around race and ethnicity, because that's a topic that I'm comfortable talking with. But just outside of that one of the facts that I researched and picked up on was 60%, or six out of 10 of people in the LGBTQ plus community don't feel safe enough to be out at work. So that factor on its own means that there are very likely people in workplaces who don't feel confident enough to be their full selves in the workplace. In adverts across the UK, only 7% of UK ads, put people of color as the sole or main protagonist. If you compare that with the number of consumers who think it's important for brands to promote diversity inclusion on their advertising that sits at around 84%. And then when I talk about cold hard cash, certainly from minority ethnic groups, the disposable income of people within that group is currently at 252 billion pounds per annum and at the current rate it will rise to 16.7 trillion by 2061. So at that point right there, I would say, there are people who are not being seen not being represented, but have quite a sizable amount of money to spend, which is, which is huge. And the way that I frame that in terms of talking to people in the past sending leads senior leadership positions is Wouldn't you like a slice of X amount of billion per annum? And wouldn't you like to me to help you achieve that? And nine out of 10, people will say, Yes, I mean, which, which business leader would not turn down that something a proposition like that, and then, I mean, we'll discuss this later on. But I mean, there's a lot lot of money on the table there from people from minority ethnic groups. And then, as I mentioned earlier on, shout at me if I'm jumping ahead here. But as I mentioned, earlier on, we're talking about senior leadership positions, and I often talk about women and men separately. So we looked at facts that basically said in the C suite, women who who do make it to the C suite, if they make it to the C suite, they're more likely to be such than their male counterparts. But you can contrast that with studies that show males confidence is assumed, whereas a woman's is earned. A man could walk into the C suite, and many would believe that he has a level of confidence, whereas a woman would have to earn, earn that confidence and earn the seat at the table. So as a little bit of a starter there, there's lots of money on the table. And many businesses, brands, agencies are not, I don't want to say taking advantage because I don't feel like that's the right language, but many businesses are not. I can't think of a better phrase, not taking advantage of the fact that there's that money on the table, which is, I think is a free shot involves the least amount of work, in my opinion to achieve that. So hopefully, by the end, I'll give you some shiny new things that your audience can take away, implement and think right, we can actually do this and earn more money in the business.
Tom Ollerton 12:23
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Tom Ollerton 12:59
Small observation here, and what you said is you reeled off 1234567 ish backed, but it was the size of the market, that 252 billion, I think you said, you repeated that three times. So I'm gonna read into that the that's the the most passionate data point for you, just like there's money being left on the table, guys. And it's not that hard to get hold of it?
Azeem Ahmad 13:22
Yeah, absolutely. Because I. So I'll tell you a story about a business that I went into before as an external person, they invited me into the boardroom purely to give them my thoughts on how they operated in terms of their market and everything else, and with a framing of diversity and inclusion. And they brought me in because I was external to the business, so I wouldn't have the company filter. And to quote a very long story short, they basically said, Azeem, what do you notice about what's about the business? How can we be more diverse, more inclusive? And I pretty much said, Well, if I can speak freely, you're all older, you're all white, but your audience that you claim to represent and serve in multiple different age groups, ethnicities, cultures, even geographic locations. Now, if I was one of your customers, I would look at a senior level of your business and think, Well, I don't see myself represented. And there was quite a level of, you know, shock and silence at the moment in in the room. And then the immediate answer, which kind of threw me off was ah well Azeem, what you may or may not know, is that we had Janet. Janet is a made up name for reference, we had Janet and you may or may not know that Janet was black and she was a female and she left. So that's obviously going to harm our diversity and inclusion numbers. And when I hear things like that, I just think of the amount of times I've seen things like marketing conferences, for example, or webinars during lockdown, where it's just a group of white people, largely men, and then one person of color, or one female, for example, and they will be talking about either A, being a person of color, or B, being a female in the marketing industry, rather than their actual knowledge or expertise. I mean, you could argue that I am doing exactly the same now on this podcast. But I genuinely think that with the platform you've very kindly given me again, thank you very much. I think that if I talk about this subject, and give your audience things that they can immediately implement, the knock on effect of that will be much better than me saying, Oh, here's a shiny new way that you can talk about programmatic advertising, for example, which may only appeal to a certain section of the audience.
Tom Ollerton 15:58
Right? So you've been teasing me with this, these. We've had the facts, tactics, tactics, and things give me give me three things that the listeners can do today, it's going to make the industry better. Okay.
Azeem Ahmad 16:11
The first thing I think every business should do. Certainly ones that take bonuses at a leadership level, is to ensure that their bonuses are directly linked to their diversity and inclusion initiatives. So if people in the business, for example, people of color, or women, or even women of color, when you combine the two, if they're not being paid fairly, equitably, then neither should the leadership, I genuinely don't believe senior leaders should take a bonus part of the business, when people lower down in the business are not being paid fairly. It's a very common known fact. I mean, it trends once a year, I think, sometime in November, where, for example, women will effectively be working for free for the rest of the calendar year because they're paid less than men. And then separately, there's a race pay gap, which we haven't gone long enough to talk about on this podcast, but nobody in my experience ever ties the two together. So for example, we know if you're a female, you're going to be paid less than your male counterparts. We also know for example, if you're black, you're going to be paid less than your white counterparts. But I don't see anybody talk about black women, for example, because you are penalized on both fronts there. So we want every single leadership bonus is tied to your diversity, including inclusion initiatives, if those people aren't being paid fairly, then neither should you if you're in the senior leadership position.
Tom Ollerton 17:45
How do you implement them?
Azeem Ahmad 17:46
So I implement that... how I would implement that. And I'll tease the second point that I was going to say in most businesses are required to release their gender pay gap every year, what I think should happen. My second point is around measuring and publicly releasing diversity data. So for example, the race pay gap. We know that gender pay gaps exist. We've all seen in the news about the gender pay gap, but and everything else. We don't see or hear a lot about the race pay gap. And my opinion on that is, it's because it's going to make painful reading for many, many people. But ultimately, I believe growth doesn't come until you're in a position of pain. Growth isn't easy to achieve, and there has to be some sort of pain to go through. So to answer your question, how to implement that, I would implement that by releasing and measuring on a yearly basis, the race pay gap.
Tom Ollerton 18:45
Right, I like that. What's next?
Azeem Ahmad 18:48
So I mentioned earlier on very briefly about conferences. So when it comes to marketing conferences, I think this is a big a big thing. I could genuinely give you five points here. But the first one is around the diversity of lineups, for example. So I think conferences, marketing conferences, I did a study, which I'll send you a link to on my blog, where I honestly looked at marketing conferences and their lineups and makeups pre pandemic, and it was basically heavily white. I think those conferences should diversify their lineups, and many do not pay for speakers, certainly conferences that could charge for example, upwards of 1000 pounds. For hundreds of people don't seem to have budget to be paying speakers or in some cases they will pay some speakers and not all so I think one there would be to diversify conference lineups and pay speakers where possible. But from a business point of view, what can businesses do when it comes to conferences is that many of these conferences are, as I mentioned, quite expensive to go to, an employee could exhaust their entire training budget. But I think there should be schemes put in place for people from underrepresented communities to attend these conferences business, you should have a pot for example to say, okay, person A, you've exhausted your your training budget, but we know that you're from an underrepresented community. So we would like to pay for you to attend this conference in return. Businesses always want to see a return. Right. So in return, we would like you to write up a lot of notes of what you've made, release it on the company blog, and tell us everything that you've learned. And hopefully, the business can grow in that sense. So two for one on that front.
Tom Ollerton 20:37
Yep. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, let's go through the list. It's all it's all good stuff so far. Honestly, this isn't really argue with you, I think it's brilliant, carry on.
Azeem Ahmad 20:50
Good, good. And then the big one. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts and experience on this, which still doesn't happen. And for the life of me, I don't know why, is diversity information should be included in job postings. But more importantly, salary information should be included in job postings. That is one that's across the board. It doesn't just apply to people from marginalized communities, for example, women or people of color, you still see job listings, where the salary is listed as competitive. Now, I have thoughts on this. Speaking to people in industry, I've got friends in the finance sector, for example, completely outside of marketing, where this happens, I say to them, Why is this the case? Why does it say competitive? I cannot phone my energy supplier and say, Oh, hello, British Gas, can I pay my bill this month competitively? It doesn't, it doesn't mean anything to me. So that should be listed, certainly, because it's a well known fact that people from marginalized communities will always, almost always, I should say, request a lower salary than their white counterparts, or people who are from non marginalized community. So that is half of point one. And the next point would be job listings include things like we are a diverse and inclusive company. And we would love to see more diverse and inclusive applicants. I think it's just if I'm being completely frank, I think it's just word salad. And I think job description should include things like as Mr. Madison is an equal opportunities employer, we welcome applications from people from the LGBTQ plus community or people who identify as part of the marginalized community, or people who don't genuinely feel like they currently have a place in a community yet, we want to hear from you no matter what background you're from, I would read something like that and immediately feel like, okay, this is a place that quite clearly cares, and has an interest in this topic. And that's somewhere that I want to be so salary and diversity information should be included in job postings.
Tom Ollerton 23:10
So what's stopping people doing this?
Azeem Ahmad 23:18
I genuinely think and this is based on conversations I've had with people in the industry. I think the reason why this has been stopped, largely comes down to the fact that businesses might be criminally underpaying certain people. So let's say for example, I spoke about PPC at the very, very start of my episode, if I had a team of PPC executives in my office, and I was paying them all 30,000 pound, but I listed a job description for another PPC executive, which was 10,000 pounds higher, the other four or five people in that team are immediately going to be aware of that and say, Well hold on a second. That's 10,000 pound more. Why am I not being paid the same amount? I've been with the company for X amount of time. And it's just going to basically disenfranchise and disillusion to the rest of the team. So that's one of the things why I feel like it doesn't happen anymore, which I don't think is right. Personally speaking, I just think it should be completely transparent. You see businesses now for example, that will list salaries either in a range, but the range I'm laughing, because the only example I can think of is where the range is very wide. So the salary for this job could be anywhere between 10,000 and 250,000 pound for example, it doesn't tell you anything, as wonderful as jobs and employment are ultimately people need to be able to, to pay their bills. So in short, I think it's just potentially businesses maybe trying to be a bit clever with the books. Certainly, looking at the current economic climate at the minute of course. Things are difficult. pennies are being pinched but it, like I said, at the very start of the episode, if you want quality, you have to put in, put in the work. So putting in a little bit of hard work there in terms of making sure people are paid equitably, and it's listed in the job description will take you such a long, long way. I'm a big believer in that.
Tom Ollerton 25:19
I mean, it's hard to argue with any of this. But I always feel from my time when I worked as an innovation person, that it's, it's easy to inspire people, really hard to make them do something, you know, if you if you gave this read this podcast on stage, or you turn this podcast or all of your content, or blog post or or talking to conference, right no one's gonna sit there again, is bullshit. Like, though, like no one in their right mind is gonna argue it's such an obvious incentive, a logical point, however, getting anyone to do anything, that's hard. I, you know, I'm on the leadership team of a small business and like, we fight for every meal, right? And so some of these things don't get discussed as often as they should, being transparent and honest about my own business. And then I can only imagine, as businesses get twice our size, or 100 times our size, then it becomes more difficult. So what I'm looking for here is what's the mindset that needs to go with these things to give businesses the motivation to make things happen? Because what you've said here is inspirational. It's like, Yep, yeah, let's do all that. What is the mindset that people need to get into, other than this 225 billion quid on the table, which potentially isn't?
Azeem Ahmad 26:32
Ultimately, it's, I always come back to money because businesses are driven by money. Whenever I talk to people in senior leadership positions, I just say, Look, do you want to make more money? I could go in and start the conversation by saying, I think you should release your yearly diversity data, like you say, very inspirational, right? But when I start the conversation, quite frankly, and say, Look, do you want to make more money? Yes, you need to do this. Okay. How do I do it? Well, most businesses will typically say, most larger businesses, I should say, smaller businesses, or new agencies, probably not in a position to do this. But they will typically then go and hire a diversity and inclusion consultant, or give someone a job title that is specifically focused around diversity and inclusion, which is great, that's actually something being executed. But in most cases, I would argue that it's not because that person has a job. But they are more often than not, not being allowed to perform the job to the best of their abilities because of constraints being placed upon them. For example, yes, we wanted to hire you, Azeem, to be our diversity and inclusion consultant, this business that turns over 100 million pounds every year. Unfortunately, we don't have budget to grant you to perform this job. So we just want to give you a seat at a desk, tuck you away in a corner, and just sort of crack on from there. So give people responsibility, but also give them the tools and the equipment and the funds ultimately, that they will need in order to perform their job to the best of their ability. So how do you do it? Let people hire people give them the chance to do it. When it comes to hiring, for example, if anybody's listening to this right now, and is hiring for a position of any level, but certainly more so of a senior level, whether that's agency in house or whatever, look to implement something along the lines of the Rooney rule where you will automatically have a conversation with someone who's from a marginalized background, or do things like anonymize CVs, remove names from CVs, again, more tactics, but things that you can like actually do to make the needle move slightly, a lot of this involves money, I've talked about money a lot, but in any sense of the word, especially as marketers listen to this, you have to spend in order to see a return unless you're doing anything organically, but generally paid performance marketing, you must spend in order to see a return, and I'm happy to be challenged on that, by either yourself, or anybody listening to this podcast.
Tom Ollerton 29:10
So what it reminds me of is sort of go back to being an innovation person, which may seem unlinked, but my role was an innovation director that was I was the innovation guy rise, not very successful on this, but what I realized is that the innovation guy should be the CEO or the C suite. Right. And in the same way, actually, in some certain organizations, social the salespeople, you know, they're having someone to come in just oh, that person's the sales lady guy, whatever. This one's the innovation person. And also feels to me I'm carrying this wrong, but like having a D&I, person makes him feel good and gives a tick. But actually really, if if the D&I is a mindset across the C suite, then it all it all cascade down versus it being like, oh, have you finished your D&I homework yet? Do you know person who sits over there? Or if I'm misunderstanding?
Azeem Ahmad 29:58
Yeah, so Again, if I can speak, if I can speak freely, I know, I think that there are businesses, there are many businesses out there who operate in the same echo chamber. So diversity and inclusion often includes diversity of thought. And the example that I always go back to, is things like ... There's a big theme that's prevalent in the industry around length of tenure. So automatically, your opinions are given more weight, directly linked to the amount of time that you have spent with a business, which doesn't translate to marketing in general, because, as I'm sure we both know, and it's probably the same from, from your own experience, Tom, that generally marketing roles have a few years lifespan in them before you move on to the next. So in the rare occasion, where someone has moved up throughout a number of years into a senior position, they will only be talking to those people who are sorry, they will only be giving weight to the opinions of those people who've been there for a certain number of years. Now, I truly believe that length of service doesn't indicate the quality of thought. I've hired and I've worked with graduates in my team who have literally been in industry for the equivalent of five minutes. And they've given me ways and techniques to do things or achieve goals, I genuinely would never have thought of myself. And I often just when I reflect upon situations like that, I think well hold on how many people in the industry are not doing this? And how much better could the industry be, if we just looked at things like this, not just operate in our same echo chamber talking to the same people or being such a meeting table and disregarding somebody's opinion, because they've only been in the business for, you know, X amount of weeks, months or years, we know people's opinions are disregarded at the table, for example, if they're a woman, or if they're from a marginalized community. But again, here's another facet, if you've only been around for a number of weeks, months or years, we kind of not focused in what you've got to say. So there's basically lots to go out. But ultimately, what I mentioned earlier on is there has to be a willingness to accept a certain level of pain and discomfort, before growth happens.
Tom Ollerton 32:26
So you've broken all the rules. You didn't bring a shiny object and you've gone wildly over time, but I have enjoyed it. And whenever D&I does come up on this podcast, it's always an education for me. And I always walk away thinking I'm grateful for you know, the mirror being held up to the industry and given me is a guy that runs a business things that I can implement directly. So I thank you very much for your time today.
Azeem Ahmad 32:51
No, thank you very much for having me. And apologies for A, breaking the rules and B, going over time.
Tom Ollerton 32:58
Oh it's fine. You're forgiven. How can people get in touch with you? And what makes a good outreach message?
Azeem Ahmad 33:05
How can people get in touch with me I am on Twitter @AzeemDigital, you can find me on LinkedIn. Or if I'm doing really well in my ongoing war with a random jewellers in London, you should be able to just Google search, how can I contact Azeem and my email address should be in the Featured Snippet. What makes a great outreach message is if you've heard this episode, and you found something that you've liked, agreed with or even disagreed with, just pop me a message and say, Hey, I really enjoyed this. Tell me something that you either liked or disliked. And let's start a conversation from there.
Tom Ollerton 33:41
Brilliant, Azeem. Thank you so much for your time.
Azeem Ahmad 33:43
Thank you so much.
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