Episode 262 / Lisa Delaney / Cathay Pacific / Regional Head of Marketing and Lifestyle Europe
The Power of Tech in Creating Immersive Experiences
Lisa Delaney’s career started agency side, evolving through working with brands like De Beers, Motorola, or Braun, to then “accidentally” end up in the airline industry. Her role at Cathay Pacific covers, on one hand, overseeing marketing, PR, and social across travel, cargo, and lifestyle, while building the lifestyle business, on the other hand.
Lisa’s Shiny New Object is tech for creating engaging experiences. Her recent project for Cathay Pacific, “Flight Path”, used live flight data and music to create a unique immersive experience. The goal was to re-introduce the brand to the world of travel after having suffered from long-lasting travel restrictions after the Covid-19 pandemic (they fly to Hong Kong, Japan, and Australia primarily). Although this was a learning experience, since there wasn’t really any historic data to compare with, Lisa considers it a very successful launch since it generated awareness and consideration. They are now running it again in 2024 to see how it compares.
Beyond tech and marketing, Lisa also shared why she cherishes the book “The Artist’s Way” by Julia Cameron and its challenges to help re-ignite our inner creativity. Tune in to hear all about that and to get Lisa’s top tips on using data effectively as a marketer and a creative leader.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Lisa Delaney 0:00
Really, what's key is asking the right questions and understanding what are the assumptions or the anomalies, something that stands out that you didn't notice before, that maybe gives an insight that could lead to a growth area or another opportunity or something we didn't consider before.
Tom Ollerton 0:20
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, and this is a regular podcast about the future of data driven marketing. And it's my absolute pleasure and absolute privilege to interview some of those brilliant and exciting people in the industry, and today is no different. I'm Lisa delaney's office where she is regional head of marketing and lifestyle Europe for Cathay Pacific. So Lisa, thank you so much for having me here. Could you tell the audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Lisa Delaney 0:56
Absolutely well. Tom, thank you very much for inviting me to be on your podcast. So I'm Lisa Delaney. I'm working for Cathay Pacific here in Europe, and I have a dual role at the moment, so I'm looking after all things marketing, PR and social, across our travel, cargo and lifestyle business. And on the second part of my role is actually building the lifestyle business. So that's our Asia Miles earn and burn proposition. So a little bit about my history. I actually started on the agency side. So I was working for J Walter Thompson, for the Middle East Market, worked for some amazing brands, such as De Beers, Motorola, Braun, Ford, and then worked for a number of other agencies. So both integrated marketing and design agencies, and even did a stint with Gillette, but at one point, I ran my own agency for a little while, and then, by accident, ended up in the airline industry. So I did two to three weeks at Qatar Airways in the UK, and that turned out to be almost seven years. So working in the UK, Germany, then the Americas and back to the UK to look after Europe.
Tom Ollerton 2:02
Lisa, you've done it all. I have a very, very high expectation of your your input for this podcast now. Thank you. So in that career, in all those different roles, brands, agency sides, even doing your own thing, are you have you been a consumer of marketing books. Are there any volumes that you keep going back to or a book that you would always recommend to someone?
Lisa Delaney 2:25
Yes, I love books, and I love recommending books to people. So I think in terms of marketing books, the one I recommend, which is maybe not strictly a marketing book, is really about more about creativity, and that's the Artist's Way. By Julia Cameron. It's an amazing book. If you haven't read it, don't know if you have, but basically it has. It's like a 12 week journey. So you have it's about finding your own creativity and regenerating yourself again. So you every week, you read a chapter, and you have a few things that you have to do every time. So every morning you write morning pages, which is basically three pages of conscious streaming, consciousness streaming, where you're just writing garbage. And it's a great way to, you know, clear your mind and and help you think a bit clearly. And the second thing you need to do every week is take yourself on an artist date, and I think that's really cool, because it's something that you need to do on your own, and you could be going to an art gallery or museum, or going for a walk or taking a bike ride. It can be whatever really fills you up, right? And what she talks about is filling your well again. So as everybody has their inner child an inner artist child. And it's about, you know, during this time, I think we're, we're really plugged into everything, right? We have all the social and everything. I think it's really important to kind of regenerate and and find a way to find your creativity again. And that could be if you're in a rut in your life, or it could be that you're going through a transformation program, you need some creative ideas. It could be creative solutions to problems, could be creative financing, could be anything. So I think it's a great book, a little journey that you go along that helps you regenerate and find your inner child again.
Tom Ollerton 4:21
So I have read this book. It's embarrassing when I ask that question quite often on this podcast. I'm like, No, not read that. Probably won't. I'm not a great reader, but that was a life changing book for me, probably, what? 20 years ago? Yeah, it certainly ended a relationship I was in. I think it was like, Right, no, that's clearly not good for me. Let's move on. But the practice of morning pages, the practice of just writing, as you say, it's garbage, right? You're just writing nonsense. It kind of just gets all of that stuff out so you can think more clearly. In the end, the artist date was, I remember it was, you would take a certain sense on a date, so you'd go, right? I'm just going to listen to things. So this afternoon, I'm going to go at the park, and I'm going to not walk around with my eyes closed, but just pay more attention to sound, yeah, and, and it was that, and it was so nurturing, because at your point around, you know, social media and distraction, that's essentially someone selling to you constantly, right? Whether that's an influencer selling to you, or Apple or Android selling to you, or if it's a brand, it's just like trying to get in your brain, whereas this artist date what it does means that you are just nurturing that creative part of your soul, really. Yeah, I cannot recommend that book. However, I'm quite scared of it, like, because you have to, like, write letters to people that have done you wrong and yet yourself. And then I suppose a certain point you have to go back and read all of your morning pages. It's just like, oh my god, I sound like a completely wild, untamed person, so I should do it again. And I and you're, you're nudging me towards it, but it is a terrifying experience in a lot of ways. But yeah, unique.
Lisa Delaney 5:59
Totally unique. And I completely agree with it being life changing. So I gave it to my sister about 20 so years ago, and she was doing an art degree, and that basically helped her unplug, and she was really stuck in a creative way, and it just, yeah, massively helped her. So yeah, and I'm gonna do that book again, I think.
Tom Ollerton 6:18
Let's do it at the same time, and then we can coach each other. But how does that transfer to marketing? Right? So you've got a, I don't know, Black Friday sale coming up. What's that got to do with that?
Lisa Delaney 6:28
Yes, well, I still write my morning pages, so I still write as much as I can, okay, not consistently, but I do write, and I think it just helps clear your mind. So for me, it's about helping me come up with things that are more creative. I think also, when you've been in an industry for a while, you get a little bit stuck. So I think just having that clarity of mind and looking outside and not getting to pigeonholed in the area that you're in, so it just frees up your mind, frees up your creativity.
Tom Ollerton 6:58
So unfortunately, we've got to move on. I would love to talk to you about this book and your experiences, but I have a podcast to deliver. So the next question is, what advice do you have to become a better data driven marketing that isn't going on artist dates and writing morning pages?
Lisa Delaney 7:14
Yes, I think the other side of it, obviously, yes, the data. It's amazing that we have so much data now to work with. And quite often, you know, my role? Obviously, I'm not the person who's dealing with all the raw data, so what I'm having is a lot of reports being given to me or dashboards that I'm using. So quite often, I think really what's key is asking the right questions and understanding what are the assumptions that have been made when someone's presenting this to you? So what is the story that they're trying to tell, and then understanding what's missing from that data, right? So sometimes it's the holes or the gaps that are quite interesting and then or the anomalies, something that stands out that you didn't notice before, that maybe gives an insight that could lead to a growth area or another opportunity, or something we didn't consider before. So I think asking the right the question, and then also just being a bit more inquisitive on the data and looking at it from a different perspective. And I think also we have our own biases, so we all know that we take data to tell our own stories, right? So I think also taking that with a different lens.
Tom Ollerton 8:23
So I'm writing a book at the minute about data, creativity and advertising, and I've done it based on interviews, right? So I knew even less about it than I thought I did when I went into it. And one of the observations was from a couple called Ferris and Rosie Yakov. I don't if you know those guys, but they basically said that all large organizations, be it businesses, nonprofits, governments, have to be have to use numbers, have to use alphanumerical data, because the scale is so big, right? And so that's where you get spreadsheets, dashboards, reports. But what that misses is the nuance, right? And one of the people I interviewed for the book was Rory Sutherland, and he said, This was his research or someone else's, but he was talking about coffee shops. Coffee shops always close at like, five o'clock and and he's so we, of course they do, because no one wants a coffee at 4-5. He said, No, yes, they do. There's plenty of people that drink coffee late into the day, but there's this thing in the industry where the people who work in those coffee shops tend to not own them, so a Costa or a Starbucks or whatever. So what they do is that they don't want people coming in for a coffee at like five to five, right? So what they do have this phrase in the industry called getting the mop out. So what they do they stick their chairs on the tables by the window. Yeah. So people, what, you know, you and I want to catch up over a tea we don't want to be somewhere where they're like, cranking chairs about right. So, so actually, the actual data point is that people on low wages in coffee shops want to go home on time or early, if possible. So what they do is they they put these chairs out and get the mop out, as it were. So the data point would say, the coffee shops, no one wants to have coffee at four or five, but that's not true. Yes, they do, actually. So I think it's a real problem for data driven marketers. Yeah, you've got that click through rate. You've got a cost per acquisition. You've got a view through rate, you've got a dwell time. You've got a cost per lifetime value. But that's not the whole picture. So just like coffee and talking too much. But how would you ask the right questions? What? What are the questions that you go to most often that get you the full picture of what the data is talking about?
Lisa Delaney 10:30
I think first one is the assumptions. What are the assumptions being made? Because I think that's the starting point, right like, what's the filters being used? What's the what did we take out? Because when you know what's being taken out, you can decide if you need it back in again. That makes sense. So I think that's one question to start with. Is definitely the assumptions, and then I think also trying to align it with where you want to get to, because I think is this like if you're trying to grow something. So it maybe depends on your objectives as well, right? If you're trying to grow business and you're just talking to, like, to your point, the same people all the time. Is it that you are missing people outside that, outside of that range that you're not talking to? So I think, yeah, it's just about digging in. Like, how did you get the data? Where did it come from? What are we missing? What's been excluded?
Tom Ollerton 11:28
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with madfest, whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect a distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content, startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from madfest events, you'll find me causing trouble on stage, recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in Marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
we're gonna now talk about your shiny new object, which is tech for engaging experiences? Yeah. Why is that? Why is it your shiny new object?
Lisa Delaney 12:16
Yes, I get excited about the possibility of technology and just creating these more memorable experiences, right? So I think after the pandemic, everybody you can see, why do people travel? Why do that? Why is that being so popular? And the trend is still being for people that want to travel, even after the pandemic, and more so, because you want experiences, right? Everybody wants to have a nice experience. So I think what's interesting is that there's with all the developments in technology and now AI and everything else, there's a lot of room that we can do something a little bit more immersive and engaging and just take people along on journeys without even maybe leaving the country.
Tom Ollerton 12:55
So can you give me an example of that, some work you've done where you've created an engaging experience using tech?
Lisa Delaney 12:57
Absolutely. So last year, we did something called Flight Path, which was at the Outer Net in the now building. So not sure if you been there, it's at the top of Tottenham Court Road. It's a beautiful space that is open to the public. It's purely very open and immersive space. So we did something called the flight path, which was using technology such as our live flight data and our ly modeling of our aircraft and music that was composed specifically for this piece of work. And what was really interesting was just to see the consumer reaction or people's reaction so and it was continuous, like every time I went there, every time I saw people, their phones were out, and there was oohs and ahs throughout the whole experience, which was literally, I think, 90 seconds, or it's not even a very long period of time, but the reaction was the same. And also just understanding, then hearing from my colleagues in Japan, basically saying that, you know, an influencer had been in London and was now showing this in Japan, so to see the reach and it to go across the world is quite exciting.
Tom Ollerton 14:04
So you're like, the dream client for an agency, really, that you would sign off. Like, that's just the most perfect case study is to have that specific bit of digital out of home to be used by a premium airline. It's brilliant. So how did that come about? Did someone pitch that to you? Or were you like, look, we need to stop worrying about PPC and start focusing on building the brand through emotion. How what was the problem that that bit of work was there to solve?
Lisa Delaney 14:32
Yeah, absolutely. So the brief is actually quite simple, and to be fair, the agency publicists and I worked really closely together, and we turned it around really quickly, working closely with the Outer Net, they would probably say it was dream client, because literally, we did it in about four weeks, which was amazing, and it was came out of a challenge that we had, obviously, post pandemic, Cathay Pacific, we've been hurt probably the hardest, right, because Hong Kong and China only opened up last year, and everybody forgets that. So our markets really were last to open. So the brief was showcase that we're an airline, showcase our hub, Hong Kong, and some of the key destinations that we fly to, which is Hong Kong, Japan and Australia. And so this, yeah, this piece of work did all three of those things, was immersive, and we went to see the space and felt that it wasn't something you could just run a normal ad. So we had obviously creative that was coming from head office for a big brand campaign, and it was not just something you could plug and play. We really felt you needed to create something that was unique and different and engaging for this space.
Tom Ollerton 15:39
Sorry, I work in a performance marketing world, so I'm gonna have to ask you this question, was there any kind of conversion at the end of it? Because I've seen stuff on that, that on that, that is it called the alternate. Is that the whole building's called the outlet, right? Okay, I wasn't sure if that specific digital bit had a proper name, but I saw something for a luxury brand, and you had to, like, hold up a you had to download an app via a QR code, and you had to point it at some butterflies, and you had to try and catch the butterflies. Didn't work. It was horrible. But, like, I got sort of sucked into that. There was, like, a funnel there, and I knew what was happening. I was getting, like, sucked into this thing. But was there any sort of, was there any conversion on it, or did you have to fight really hard not to have a QR code on it.
Lisa Delaney 16:24
Yes, we did look at those things, obviously. Do we want a QR code? Do we want to have social media handles or something on there? But at the end of the day, we felt that we royally wanted to create an immersive experience. And actually, even the creative director, he said, The best part of it was when someone at the end of it said, Oh, it was an ad. So they were so disappointed, and that was kind of we had done our job, and I think really it was about awareness building and consideration and also targeting a different audience, because we've been out of market for so long, so we needed something that was a bit more impactful, not your usual, everyday type of advertising.
Tom Ollerton 17:02
So, and where did that execution sit in amongst the rest of the strategy?
Lisa Delaney 17:07
Yeah, so we had, obviously a big campaign going on with out of home, and it was a campaign called feels good to move that we had creatives came from head office, so there was a lot going around it, and we just tailored some of the there's Vista screens that are outside of the Outer Net that we tailored to fit both the campaign and what was going on inside the Now Building.
Tom Ollerton 17:29
So global sent you something that you had to work with, and you're like, right? Cheers, guys, I can do this as well.
Lisa Delaney 17:35
Yeah, that's about right.
Tom Ollerton 17:37
Would you do it again?
Lisa Delaney 17:38
Yes, actually, we're going to run it next week.
Tom Ollerton 17:41
Brilliant. What? The same, creative, media again?
Lisa Delaney 17:44
Yes.
yes, we're going to change the outside so we have a sale coming up next week. Tip, tip, yeah, so it's, it was just so engaging. So my colleague went to go see it. We obviously did a another sense check of it, and she just said it was just as good as it was the first time I saw it, so and I was saying earlier as well that, I think when I worked at De Beers, I was mentioning, we were speaking earlier about how there was kind of these diamond moments. And I felt like this creative has those kind of sparkly moments, those three times where people just go ooh and ah, and I think that's a winning creative that's very difficult to replicate and do again.
Tom Ollerton 18:24
I had an interesting interview also for the dating creativity Peter field, and he was talking about that tension and annoyance between performance and brand campaigns. And a new thing is performance market is we get really excited that we run a performance campaign, and we're like, oh, this had a click through rate, and the conversion rate went up massively, and the cost per acquisition went down. And that's really brilliant. But he's like, Well, unless you're like, a kind of kitchen sink, you know, you make soap in your bedroom and you sell everything on Instagram. But that's really misleading, because part of the reason that that performance moment happened, or that conversion moment happened, is because of the brand you have built. And I think we when you have big organizations, you have your performance team over here, you have your brand team over here, and that, you know, they're not always related, and don't understand the relationship between the two things. So I'm really keen to know, what were you tracking the performance not, we've moved past the QR code thing. I mean, like, were you tracking did? Was there a drive in website traffic or brand uplift? Like, how are you measuring the performance of the the reminding people that you existed and what you did and where the hub was? But also, how were you tracking it in those kind of hard more business metrics?
Lisa Delaney 19:44
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a, so it was a full funnel campaign. So we did go, you know, from top to bottom, and we work very closely with our digital sales team, so we are tracking, also our brand equity tracker. So we have a brand equity tracker that comes from head office. So it didn't. Increased 10 percentage points during that time period. We also had an increase in our website traffic, conversion went up, etc. So we have a lot of metrics in terms of what was the revenue generated during that sale period or that time because it's also is a key booking period as well. So it's from September to October, or bit of November as well. So it was a really key booking period. But really for us, it's about driving quality traffic to the website, and then it's for digital to convert it right.
Tom Ollerton 20:30
So to push your own bit of advice back at you, what data was missing, what were the assumptions that might have been wrong in that experience?
Lisa Delaney 20:40
I think the... I think for us, it was, we're really just getting back on our feet again. So I think we could have been stronger in determining the key metrics to measure before we even went out there. So I think the some of it is, you know, looking at it in the at the end of the campaign, rather than, how do we optimize during the campaign, was there something we could have done differently? You know, it was quite a different time for us, because 2023 was the first we're comparing between 2019 right? Because we had this gap. So it wasn't a normal year. So I'd say this year we have more data that we can compare versus last year. We have better metrics in place. So I think this year will be, will be more like a normal year for us. So it's, it's been unusual for Cathay, I'd say.
Tom Ollerton 21:31
So last year was like, right? We're back. Yeah, that's, that's the new benchmark we did. Well, where do we go from here? Yes, well look, unfortunately, we're at the end of the podcast, and we've been through a real range of different stuff and different bits of advice from from the artist's way through to missing dark data to an incredible digital, out of home experience. So I look forward to hopefully seeing let me know when it's live, or I'll pop down and see it. I would love to see it happen. If someone wants to get in touch with you about anything we've talked about. Where would you like them to do that? And what makes a message that you'll actually reply to?
Lisa Delaney 22:07
LinkedIn is probably the easiest. You can easily find me there. Just search Lisa and Cathay Pacific, I think you'd find me. I think a message that comes across that you've done a bit of research obviously just stands out, doesn't it? Rather than a generic list of, here's what I'm selling, which we get a lot of.
Tom Ollerton 22:29
Just want one guest to say, just send me a generic message that will be fine. Yeah, Lisa, thank you so much for your time.
Lisa Delaney 22:38
Thank you. It's been brilliant.
Subscribe to the ‘Shiny New Object’ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and Soundcloud.