Episode 263 / Virginia Barnes / Standard Life UK / Interim Brand, Sponsorship and Retail Marketing
Beyond the Spreadsheets: Why Marketers Need to Speak to Real Customers
Virginia Barnes has learnt the importance of qualitative research throughout a varied career, from working in advertising agencies to moving client side in food and now financial services. She emphasised how powerful customer conversations can be for changing perspectives on the latest episode of our podcast.
Virginia’s Shiny New Object is qualitative research in the digital age because marketers can be too seduced by spreadsheets and data to understand an important dimension of what makes customers research for their products in the first place. This is because, in her words, “the data tells you what’s happening, not necessarily why.”
Although data driven marketing relies on the “ones and zeroes” to tell a story, that can miss important nuances. There’s even a huge difference between sending out a questionnaire to your audience and actually sitting down for a 1:1 chat. But this doesn’t mean any source of information should be discredited. As Virginia puts it: qualitative research “is a different colour in your paint palette that you have access to.”
Tune in to the latest episode to get her top marketing tip, listen to her career evolution, and learn how to make qualitative research a fruitful part of your data driven marketing strategy.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Virginia Barnes 0:00
A measure of a really good marketing person is somebody who's just curious, because you see things, you're like, Oh, that's interesting. And you can get distracted, just always step back, always step back, so sort of not getting lost in the data, and trying to be that sort of interpreter for others and telling that story as coherently as possible, I think is my top tip.
Tom Ollerton 0:44
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of the creative effectiveness ad tech platform Automated Creative and this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. I'm very grateful to the team at CreativeX, who have lent me their very fancy villa in Cannes. So we are looking out to sea as we record this, I'm sure I'll be back in East London. It'll be raining, but anyway, at this moment, things very good. Thank you. Creative X, please go and check those guys out. But I'm sat here with Virginia Barnes, who is interim brand sponsorship and retail marketing at Standard Life UK. So Ginny, can you give the audience a bit of background into who you are and what you do?
Virginia Barnes 1:28
Hey, Tom, so I started my career in advertising agencies, and then I moved into FMCG, moved client side at Arla foods, and then Mars, then I spent 10 years at Aviva in global brand and propositions. Then I'd freelance for a bit, and then I was at Nuffield health, and then I was at Thames Water. And then I found my way back to financial services at standard life. So I've Ping ponged around a bit.
Tom Ollerton 1:56
So in that Ping pongy career, which new belief or behavior has had the biggest impact on your work life?
Virginia Barnes 2:07
So I think I I really love our industry. I really love what we do. I think it's very interesting, and I find it intellectually stimulating. However I've I've got to that point in my life where I've realized that I need to feel like I'm I'm doing something where there is a I don't want to use the word purpose, because that gets banded around and has a lot of naysayers to do with it. By just feeling like there's something else like that, the organization is up to something that I believe in. So for example, Standard Life is about getting more people to save more money in their pensions for later life. And I think that's the right thing. We should all be doing that. And I'm very worried about the fact that there are many millions of people who are going to have a horrible financial reawakening when they get to retirement age and realize that they can't retire. And that makes me sad. So that's a belief I can get behind. And I think that helps me feel like I'm connected to doing something that's more important than just, you know, making some great ads or making my company money, I feel like that's, that's, that's good. And actually, I had the realization for that when I was at Nuffield health. So Nuffield health is a trading charity, and they really are driven by so you look at your face, no. Nutfield health is a trading charity. They don't have any shareholders. They all the money that once they've paid all their bills, they reinvest it into health and well being to support a healthier nation across the UK. And, you know, during the pandemic, and they had to close their doors, and, you know, gyms were shut and hospitals were only taking NHS patients at cost. And we'd be in meetings, and we'd have to make some really tough calls, and somebody would say, but what's going to help us build a healthier nation? And someone will go, well, it's this, and it's like, okay, well, we have to make that happen. What do we do? How do we make that happen? And it was, it was really inspiring, actually. It was really exciting to go, God, there's you can be commercial, but you can still, you can still do something that feels like it's adding up to something bigger. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 3:58
So that was quite moving, really. I massively respect that and I definitely don't think you should step away from the word purpose. Just because someone else thinks it's a stupid word. That's their problem. If that's if that means something to you, then then you clearly what follow you using that word, because, you know, you're not banding it around for the hell of it.
Virginia Barnes 4:19
No. I think, I think that's the thing. It's like so many things in our industry where there is something is declared to be brilliant, and loads of people go, it's brilliant, it's brilliant. And then the naysayers come in and go, No, it's terrible. It's terrible. And then they argue on either side of and that's what happens with everything. It's a term, a technology like, just everything that's that's how our industry and also, do you know what our industry also does is where something's really bad, you know what they do? They make a campaign about it. And, you know, just like, honestly, guys like, that's not the way to solve the world's problems, is to make a campaign. But anyway...
Tom Ollerton 4:54
You know, I had a few conversations rattling in my head being here, and what one person said to me is that the entire marketing journalism ecosystem is based on novelty, right? It's like, look at this new thing, unew thing, new thing. It's the only thing that's going to drive a click, because they can't have a headline that goes, well, P&G grew their market share because they just did what they've always done. No one's going to read that article, right? And so there's this kind of novelty that's whipped up, and then there's this other supplier who will also remain nameless, and what they do is they they match make brands with startups. And they were saying it's ridiculous, because you see this stuff in the press, and then this this new, whatever you call it, like novelty stuff, and then that whips up this interest in a new thing, as you suggested, and then they get the brief going. We need to find startups to do this new thing. So there's so that the power of our own media to whip up interesting things that no one actually necessarily needs is quite so there's this kind of cascade of like oddness, and I haven't quite got my head around it, and we're getting massively off topic, but I think it's very different doing podcasts in person. I've realized this week anyway, back on track, right? So it's a purpose driven career, and that's your belief, and that makes your work life better, which is fantastic. So let's go back to the nitty gritty now. So you you're doing, you're working for the right business for the right reason. But what is it a marketing tip when it comes to data driven marketing that you find yourself sharing most often?
Virginia Barnes 6:24
I think... so, the tip I always give is just always step back. Always step back. What are we trying to do here? What are we what? What's the ultimate objective? What's what really matters? Because I think often you can get really sucked into the nitty gritty in the detail, and you can miss the woods for the trees, if that's the right way around, I can't, or the trees for the woods, whatever. You know. What I'm trying to say is that you have to take a step back and remind yourself what is the thing we're actually trying to do here? Because often, you know, there's a, I was talking to somebody yesterday about the fact that, I think a kind of a true, a measure of a really good marketing person is somebody who's just curious, because you see things, you're like, Oh, that's interesting. Why is that? Why is that like that? Why is that like that? And you can get distracted. You can, if you follow up all those little leads, all those little prior cues, you can get lost. So you have to just remind yourself of what we're trying to achieve here. What are the things that I can tell a coherent story about what's happening? And I think so much of our job as marketing people, often is about explaining what we do to others around us, particularly for funding elsewhere in the business, so sort of not getting lost in the data, and trying to be that sort of interpreter for others and telling that story as coherently as possible, I think, is the my top tip.
Tom Ollerton 7:46
So we are going to move on to your shiny new object. Now, back on brief, okay, and your shiny new object is qualitative research in a digital age, yes. So why? What is that? And why is that you're shining new objects. So
Virginia Barnes 8:01
in some ways it's, it's, it's not that new, but it's, it's a very old thing. But I think the reason it we must remind ourselves and not lose track of stay in touch, of qualitative research, is because, again, if you, if you just look at the ones and zeros, as we were talking about earlier, if you just look at the data, you can, you can become consumed by that. And actually, I think this so powerful to have a conversation with a real customer. It can be one on one. It can be, I meant, I don't know about you, but the number of times I end up sitting next to somebody on a dinner party, I'm forget to say I have bored so many young people about pensions here in Cannes. Honestly, after about three glasses of wine, I'm like, but are you saving enough for your future? Anyway, that's I'm now distracting myself from the conversation, but my shiny new object is, always, remember to get back to customers. Customers have the answer always, always, so you just got to keep talking to them and not not forget that there are real people at the end of our efforts and our campaigns. And I suppose, because of technology, you don't have to spend 1000 pounds and sit in a dark room behind a, you know, one way mirror and watch people talk for an evening. You can, actually, there's so many different ways you can still get that sort of quality insight, in terms of, you know, you can do, you can do core research over sort of, I want to say zoom, but I don't think that's the right platform. But this is similar sort of remote video. You can watch people using your product live. There's so many different ways, but there's nothing like real customers, real time data, how people actually use things or go about it's not the way you design it to be. You just get so much, so much knowledge. And I think that real insight is just gives you a new dimension of understanding.
Tom Ollerton 9:50
Can you give me an example of when you've done this, where it's been useful and informative?
Virginia Barnes 9:54
Yes, so I suppose my, I mean, I've always loved a bit. I have to say, I have always loved a bit of core research. It's the reason why I remember being a graduate, actually, in advertising agencies. And I remember one of my first brands was Caesar dog food. And I remember sitting behind in a dark room, behind a two way mirror, watching these, these people talking about, you know, Billy doesn't like fish on Tuesdays and stuff, and just being like, my god, this is Billy. Was a dog, by the way, just thinking for clarification, and just think, Oh, this is amazing. I love this. And then I suppose my career changed, and things moved on, and I'd kind of forgotten about it. And then in my last role at Aviva, where I was Global Head of Customer propositions, I remember we were doing some innovation work in Turkey, and we were trying to design some long term savings products, and we... the data was telling us that people were having fewer children. And that's the thing. The data tells you what's happening, not necessarily why? Because then we did the core research, and it transpires that the reason people are having fewer children is because sort of middle, middle class people in Turkey were worried about the school system, so having fewer children so they could pay to put those children into private schools, which is really interesting, but suddenly is an idea, is a something you can use from a product proposition development point of view. And suddenly you you know that you it's not just you know exactly how to position it, you know how to frame it, you know how to talk about it, or leave us a pool as you're marketing it as well. Then it's, you know, we would have missed that. We would have missed that if all we'd seen was the data on the page.
Tom Ollerton 11:25
So spiritually, I agree with you, yes. However, there's gonna be someone listening to this, thinking, right? I'm on the performance team. Yeah, whatever. Performance Based brand, and there's a serious team and an investment, and it's their job to bump up the click through rate. Yeah, they'll reduce the CPA or increase mark and effectiveness. And they're going, well, Ginny, that's all very lovely, but I, you know, I've got to shift my ones and zeros here. So how would you advise a performance marketer who's living in a spreadsheet to to be a better performance marketer by using that advice?
Virginia Barnes 12:01
Well, I think, I think they're the exactly the kind of people who can benefit from this most. So I don't think that. I think so. Is there someone else in your if there's, if there's someone else in your organization who is doing some qual research, can you go along? Can you listen in? Can you or you don't even need to do it genuinely, you can just can do it for very little money. It's not a it's not it's a time investment, not a money investment, but I promise, you can be in the most performance role in the world. Have a conversation with a real customer about how they go about choosing, you know, what decision making they go through, what thoughts are going through their head. They will learn something about, you know, the language that their customer talk uses as they're describing their purchasing, or what what they're thinking about, when? How come you decided to make that choice? What, what you know? What were you searching for? What triggered you to think about it in the first place? I bet you there will be something that will add a new dimension that you would have missed otherwise.
Tom Ollerton 12:52
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So what I'm trying to work out is a little bit more about the how, so I get the value. Yeah, why you would do that? But for someone who's like, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm a traditional performance market, do that stuff. How do you, how do you get started? Is it having the questions, do you put all your time on getting the right audience. Like, what is your say, someone's inspired by this, and they go, right, I'm gonna go and do it, like, and use those remote tools that you're talking about, yeah. What kind of mindset? What are the what are the kind of early steps you need to take to make sure that your qualitative research is useful?
Virginia Barnes 14:06
So I absolutely would agree in terms of having a questionnaire and beginning with like, keeping it really simple, asking open ended questions, keeping that list quite short, and letting customers talk using their own words. But like I said, you don't have to do a long, longitudinal interview with 500 people. You can genuinely, if you spoke to one or two people, you would get value from it. So it could be people who you already know, are customers, who have made purchases. It could be, depending on what category you're in, if it's the kind of thing that anybody would use, you could you can recruit people quite easily. You can even ask family and friends like genuinely. There doesn't have to be an awful lot of cost attached, just people who aren't like us. We're all weirdos, and we think about things in a weird way. Just a normal person who isn't. Do you know what I mean? You're laughing at me, but I say this all the time, nothing. No one who has got anything professionally to do with our industry, just the normal. Person talk, talk me about why did you, know, go home and talk to your mum and dad and be like so why did you make that decision? How did you get that, what triggered it? Hopefully it wasn't you working in that company who did it. Sorry, but, but, yeah, have a really short list of questions about so it's really hard to do because we're talking about a theoretical situation. But for example, if we were talking about, I don't know, we wouldn't have performance marketing for croissants. I'm just trying to look around.
Tom Ollerton 15:34
If this sounds like 26 frozen croissants, yeah, Tesco. I can see that in a banner.
Virginia Barnes 15:40
Okay, I can see some very beautiful croissants over there everybody, because we are in are in Cannes. So that's where that came from. So what? So, for example, if it was performance marketing for croissants, you would find some people who have bought croissants from you, and just ask them if they were up for conversation or genuinely. You could talk to people in your network who are not involved in the industry, if you don't have the ability to go to a third party and source them in that way, but hopefully you have customers on your own CRM system, you can actually ask about this stuff too. So there's three different ways you could do it.
Tom Ollerton 16:14
So avoid a marketing person, a croissant specialist.
Virginia Barnes 16:17
Yes, not a croissant specialist, just anyway. Yeah, this is why it's hard to do, in theory, but Yeah, somebody who has, who will be unaffected by the industry, who you can just ask so it doesn't have to be a big deal. I feel like I'm flailing around at this point.
Tom Ollerton 16:32
Not at all. So we discussed this beforehand, but I think that the power and influence of the big platforms, the Metas and the Googles and like, they deal in ones and zeros that is their business, ginormous amount of numerical, quantitative data. So it's not in their interests to do for brands to do this. And they will fly you out to Cannes, they'll stick you on the beach or on their yacht, and they'll be like, we've got this new AI thing, and all you've got to do is sneeze and you'll create a campaign and all this kind of stuff. But what you're talking about is graft. And as you say, it's not necessarily a cash investment, but it's, it's stopping the day to day, and it's going speaking to someone directly. So how, how are you? How would you cope with that when I mean, you're here at Cannes, there's like a huge, long beach full of tech suppliers who will be throwing ones and zeros at you, pretty much all of them. So what is the mindset that you would recommend someone listening to this podcast to go right? Okay, it's great. You've got these incredibly forceful, powerful machines. But yes, we do also need to speak to people. How do you get the balance right? Is it once a week, once a month, every day?
Virginia Barnes 17:45
Oh, gosh. So I don't think it needs to be every day. I think it's, I mean, I'm not suggesting that, you know, huge amount of your time is still involved with those ones and zeros and talking to Google and meta and so on. I'm not disparaging that. I'm just thinking that there is a new there is a different color in your paint palette that you have access to. And I think it would be a shame if you, if you, if you never access that, because, in my experience, you always learn something else. And also, if I'm being a little bit cynical, if all you ever do is just don't ever get your source of truth from, like, one or two places, try and find different, you know, try and verify that information from different sources as much as you can, and that's all it is. That's all it is, is sort of talking to real customers, you will. It's a you'll see what you're looking at. You'll see your problem from a new perspective, and you'll get new insight. Yeah.
Tom Ollerton 18:35
And how important is the soft kind of tonal stuff, because so you've sent out a survey monkey right to 50-100 people, yeah? And you get a bunch of questions. You get spreadsheets, whatever graphs. How important is that, versus hearing the change in tone in someone's voice? Yeah? Like, Yes, I saw, I really, I used to do this podcast, face to face and then Covid happened, and I'm like, so efficient. I can just do it remotely, but it's completely different, completely different experience. I'm picking up everything from you versus what you choose to share on a Zoom call. So I'm curious to know how important is that listening to the change in pace, the tone, the facial reactions, because then that is nobod's gonna write that down, and not feel it.
Virginia Barnes 19:20
Yeah. So I would advocate the latter, as in talking to real people, seeing the qualitative side of it, rather than necessarily doing a survey monkey. Because of exactly what you've just said is that I think you miss out so much if you're going to talk to a customer, talk to a customer, sending out a survey is not the same thing, like that's really valuable, and it's another data source, actually, if you wanted to do that. But what I mean is having real conversations or doing watching the way customers really use the products, or how make those purchases over zoom or whatever the platform is, I can't remember, but yeah, I think that those nuances, and it's. Because what's difficult, especially even in performance marketing, is that we all think it's you can be led down the path of believing it's all very rational, and it's not. You know, people make split decisions in a, in a in the moment. Why did you, why did you click on that rather than that? Why did you, why did you follow that link through when you didn't click? Do you know what I mean? It's sort of mean? It's sort of, it's understanding. You can't just ask people to rationally explain what they do, because they will, sort of, they will give you reasons, but it's not necessarily the truth. So I think actually, you have to watch people's reactions, watching, yeah, I mean, I'm not, I keep talking about being Poirot here, but there are, there are subtle differences in terms of how people respond to stuff, and you can see if someone's making up a reason, rather than actually, genuinely has it. She says.
Tom Ollerton 20:50
So final question before we wrap up, what if someone's listening to this isn't Virginia Barnes or someone like me who can just talk to anyone, yeah, and has no shame and an intro, right? Some people rather stick needles in their eyes than than speak to anyone on a video call or like so how would, how would someone who is very happy in a performance world where they sit behind a spreadsheet like and works that way, and wants to work remotely and sit in a room, and now you want them to go and speak to like a human being about their croissants. How would you get around that?
Virginia Barnes 21:33
So now this is not a problem I suffer from, as you know, because I'm happy to talk to anyone, so I'm really having to use my empathy here. But okay, so what I would say is that this is valuable for everyone, not just you. And I'm assuming you're not in a team of one, so there will be other people around you. And what you can do is you can have one person who is actually doing the questioning and but is sharing that insight with a wider team. Or, like I said, you can have one person who's doing the interview while somebody else is listening and watching in and I think you'd still get value from it. I really do. So does. I'm not, I'm not advocating that everybody has to go and do their role at their own interviews, if that makes you really uncomfortable. But I think, I think just don't... it would be foolhardy, I think, to walk past the opportunity to talk to real customers in some way about how they made the how they made the decisions that they did, and why they made the purchase that they did, or why they didn't, I think you will learn something then, rather than Oh, there was a click or there wasn't, I think that you're missing an extra dimension, and maybe it won't help you today. Maybe it's not going to shape your thinking immediately, but I think it will help you tune into the customers, yeah, the customer's perspective. Because I think, like I said, I think if the emphasis is too much on you, your business and meta and Google, you're missing the most important part in the equation, which is customers like you have to spend a bit of time talking to customers.
Tom Ollerton 23:00
That is the perfect place to leave it. Thank you. So if someone wants to get in touch with you about any of the things you talked about, where is the best place to do that, and what is a message that you will respond to?
Virginia Barnes 23:12
Well, I think I'm generally quite responsive. I would say probably LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a good way to reach me.
Tom Ollerton 23:17
Yeah. What's in the message? Come on. What's the message you respond to?
Virginia Barnes 23:21
I will respond to anything. A message on LinkedIn saying, Hey, I heard you talking on the shiny new object podcast with Tom ollerton
Tom Ollerton 23:30
Thank you so much for your time.
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