Episode 167 / Patrick Neyret / Danone / Marketing & Innovation Director, DACH, Plant-Based
Purpose-Based Marketing Is Not For Everyone
Patrick Neyret leads Marketing and Innovation for Danone’s Plant-Based division in the DACH area. He believes in overarching knowledge and interests when it comes to marketing, allowing people to make connections that will help them create better messages. He also thinks that not everyone needs to jump on the bandwagon of purpose-based marketing. Patrick’s Shiny New Object is the ability to translate purpose and sustainability into commerce.
Although the topics of environment, social and governance (ESG) sit high on the agenda of most organisations today, not every brand has to declare and follow a purpose, says Patrick. As long as they can find a way to tell stories that translate complex ESG talk in a creative and engaging way for consumers, this can be a winning strategy. However, that doesn’t necessarily suit every type of product and service.
Patrick gave the example of chocolate brands in this case. As he puts it, “it’s ok to just be a tasty product.” Brands need to discover their own space and avoid believing they are more than the reality, or striving towards being more than they should. Right to play is a huge topic for Patrick, and one that he considers often when looking at the type of work he is doing at Danone currently.
While Patrick’s Shiny New Object is the ability to translate purpose and sustainability into commerce, he doesn’t just mean from a selling perspective. He thinks that, for any brand to which this applies, the “sweet spot” is the hard to achieve combination of finding your space, translating that creatively, and impacting people positively. If all these conditions are met, they will generate the benefit from a business standpoint.
When it comes to plant-based products – Patrick’s current area of focus – this doesn’t mean going after uniquely the convinced vegan consumers who are already searching for these products. Instead, Danone Plant-Based is looking at the “700 million imperfect flexitarians rather than the 7 million perfect vegans.” Joining the same way of thinking that Oatly have adopted, accepting that nobody needs to be completely committed all the time, but that accepting plant-based alternatives some of the time makes an impact, is the future for this sector.
Find out Patrick’s top tips around translating ESG into digital marketing strategies, his best advice for students and marketers, and more, in the latest episode of the podcast here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:06
Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative. And this is a weekly show where I interview the leaders of the marketing industry about their vision for the future of the business. I am on a call with Patrick Neyret, who is Marketing & Nnnovation director, DACH, Plant-Based at Danone. So, Patrick, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, can you give the audience a bit of an overview?
Patrick Neyret 0:34
Yeah, sure. Thanks, Tom, for having me, so, yeah, as you said, my name is Patrick. I am French Brazilian born and raised in San Paolo. I started my career,I think, now around 18 years ago as a strategic planner at Ogilvy. And then from there, I jumped to the sort of the client side and worked in companies like Nestle, Heineken as well as Pernod Ricard in Brazil. And then, during my time at Pernod Ricard, I was, I moved to Paris, France, and I stayed there for around five years, moved to Danone in Paris. And eight months ago, I moved to Germany to join the Plant-Based team for Danone in this DACH cluster. So yeah, very excited to be here.
Tom Ollerton 1:25
Fantastic, right. Let's get to it. So if a student was listening to this podcast, they're thinking, I really want to follow in Patrick's footsteps, what would be your advice to them? How can students get ahead in today's market?
Patrick Neyret 1:39
Yeah, I think I, when I talked to sort of younger people, I mean, back in my days, as a student, I think people interested in marketing, sometimes they obsess a little bit with sort of the the marketing technique, right? What are the levers? How do you manage your P&L? And I think all of that, obviously, it's fantastic. And it's sort of the bread and butter of how to be a good marketer. But I think in order to have some sort of an edge, and to have a different point of view, and add value to the business, I think you need to be also very, very much interested in everything else. So I'm talking music, I'm talking arts in general, I'm talking design, I'm talking politics, right? I think this is what this sort of overarching and sort of cross connected perspective is what allows you to make the connections and to then deliver work in a more interesting way. Like I've talked sometimes to younger people, even in the company, and you're like, "Okay, so what are the things that you've been observing? So how do you get inspired? What types of bands can you can you tell me about, what is your favorite, I don't know, design object or something?" And I see that people are too focused on the day to day and on the things that lead them to become, in theory, better marketers, but not looking outside. And I think that's a big miss.
Tom Ollerton 3:15
So, you talk about everything else. I mean, that's really big. Yeah, be interested in other stuff apart from marketing, basically, I mean, which is good advice. And I think that if you're going to be a good marketer, you need to be an aware and conscious citizen of the world on a variety different levels, as you point out, but where are the most valuable places to focus curiosity for someone who is coming into the business? Who isn't just looking at the, you know, the specifics of marketing? Where do you think is a rich source of inspiration?
Patrick Neyret 3:45
I think design is one, right. So, most of my career was was spent on the packaged goods industry. So I think appreciating visuals makes sense for a lot of reasons from the more lame and cheap sort of perspective, which is like PowerPoint design, and all the way to sort of putting together a product that people will hold in their hands and say, "Wow, there's something here that pulls me to it, it's beautiful." It doesn't matter if you're on a shelf or in a website. And there's some attention that is pulled to it. I think design is a is a very, very important source of knowledge. So designing objects that inspire some level of desire, or close level desire from consumers and from people in general. I think it's super, super, super important. But that's something you need to train, right. You need to be open to it. You need to have the curiosity and you need to sort of dig deeper to understand what works, what doesn't work, and it's like a muscle. So that's one example. But I think also when you look at, like pop culture in general, music, so what are people listening to, can that influence somehow the campaigns that we create, the artists that we partner with, engage, that makes sense for the brand that you work or the service that you provide? So just trying to be closer to the lives of people in general, and not just be sort of distant from it? I think it's probably a healthy advice.
Tom Ollerton 5:11
So assuming we're talking to a slightly different audience, now someone who's actually in the industry that graduated from being a student, they've got their first job. And so what is the top marketing tip that you find yourself sharing most often?
Patrick Neyret 5:40
I think that one of the best marketing tips I ever received, unfortunately, not directly, but it's something I read around maybe 10 years ago, I think, yeah, I think I was basically putting together a presentation. So the fact that I worked as a strategic planner, when I moved to the client side, I always felt the urge to bring the two worlds closer. And I found that, sometimes, the clients they didn't even know there exists strategic planning, and the beauty of this function in terms of driving business and driving just very good communication. So I proposed to a international school that we have in Brazil, in Sao Paulo, which is called Miami Ad School, to come up with a course on the strategic planning through the eyes of the marketing client. And while I was doing that research, I came across this deck from Martin Weigel, who was back then in the team from Wieden+Kennedy, and I love one of the sentences that he put on this very widely spread slide, which is a widely spreads presentation, rather, that is, "our task is not nurturing enthusiasm, but overcoming indifference." And this should inspire not depress us. So I think basically, that puts us marketers, first, that keeps us honest, that shows us that we are not our badge or our company, even if we are sometimes sort of guided to think that, I think that keeps things in perspective, right. And I think that helps us put the energy and the passion in the work. But also know that is basically just work. And also to treat consumers as normal people who, in the majority of the cases, they could not care less about what we do, right. So I think the two points, in the end, they connect, so looking for things outside of marketing. And at the same time, knowing that also, it's just marketing, I think, allows you to be pushed, and to push your teams to deliver more interesting, more creative things. So that's a marketing tip and advice that I'll keep with me forever.
Tom Ollerton 8:03
Fantastic. And thanks for telling the story of how you came across that advice. And, yeah, that that's really landed with me. Fantastic. So we're now going to move on to your shiny new object, which is the ability to translate purpose and sustainability into commerce. Now, all of that makes sense to me. But can you just give the audience an overview of what you mean by that? And why it's your shiny new object?
Patrick Neyret 8:31
Yeah. So I mean, basically, with this rise of all the topic around ESG, right, environmental, social and governance topics. So today, I mean, you even have like funds that only invest money into sort of ESG vetted companies, there is a massive awareness around all these topics. And every company, every brand now has its own purpose. It has its own sustainability strategy, and so on and so forth. But what sometimes I struggle with personally, in my job at Danone, and I think that probably other people listening to your podcast will relate to, is this ability to move things from your corporate website, or from the the sheets or the slides in a PowerPoint deck to things that consumers can really relate to. Right? So how do you translate the topics that are super, super dry into things that people relate to and eventually will bring them closer to your brand, obviously, in an authentic and relevant way. So this is something that is driving a little bit of my energy in this past month. And I think this is a massive challenge for everyone involved in the FMCG space in the next maybe 18 to 24 months is to find a way to tell stories that translate this complex talk in a creative and engaging way, for the audience, and I think some brands manage to do that. I think I brought one one example from actually from AB InBev, which I think it's an interesting way. If I'm allowed to share it?
Tom Ollerton 10:20
Yeah, please do.
Patrick Neyret 10:21
So basically, in the US, I might not give it all the details, I hope I do justice to this case. But basically, Michelob is investing more and more in its organic range. And I mean, moving your sort of farming process from standard to organic, it's costly, sometimes it does not yield the best produce, etc. So what they did was, they signed contracts for three years down the road to buy the produce from those farmers, so three years from them, right. So ensuring that the whole process will lead to a transaction. And they transform that obviously into a very nice film etc. But I mean, the concept of standard versus organic farming and even regenerative agriculture can be very dry, can be very complex, but I think they found a way to make it a little bit more relatable, and hopefully to translate it into more sales. I don't have the data. But I would assume it had an effect on sales, as well.
Tom Ollerton 11:32
So what worries me in that is you said that all brands have a purpose now, all brands are struggling to translate purpose and sustainability. So is there a concern that this is going to become wallpaper, that yes, it's organic, it's sustainable, we have a purpose. If everyone's kind of copying each other, is that going to create its own marketing problem?
Patrick Neyret 11:58
I think so. I think on some brands, or some services are just brands, and it's all good, right? A chocolate brand can be a chocolate brand and provide people with an indulgent moment. And it's good. It's all good, right? I think the discussion we saw recently with the M&M characters that they are now sort of representing different types of consumers, it's a more diverse casting of characters, I think raised some some eyebrows. Because I mean, in the end is maybe just M&Ms and it's okay. Right. So should we basically translate the notion of a purpose to every single business ever single service? I don't think so. I don't think so. So in my previous role, I was more connected to the space of purpose, and helping guide the more iconic brands in our portfolio. And we always tried to push them to be within their own space. Right. So right to play was a concept that we used quite often there. I mean, don't try to be sort of drink the Kool Aid too much and believe that you are more than you should be, right, it is okay, to just provide a good service, to be a brand that is tasty, that is providing a moment of pleasure, it's fine, right? You don't need to save the world. If you are, I don't know, maybe a toothbrush or something. But that's my perspective on the matter. So I agree with you, I think that we need to be very careful about this.
Tom Ollerton 13:36
So there is a limited window for the early movers to differentiate in terms of sustainability and purpose and so on. But yes, these things might catch up. So then what's next? In a world where brands can do good, in a world where brands can change the world through their scale and their influence and their media budgets, fundamentally, what's next? What do you see is the next few years in the purpose and sustainability place? And how that impacts on commerce? What are you excited about? What's the future?
Patrick Neyret 14:11
I think the future, what we're going to see is more, I think, I think we're going to separate a little bit, all the brands that just jumped on the bandwagon from those that made it in the right way, right. They played within their space, they were able to translate it in a creative way. And they drove business, right. So you're in the company, we believe that there is this infinite loop, in which we say that the more we impact with some of our brands, the more we grow, right. So in the end, I mean, we are a for profit company, and we have for profit brands. So we believe that when you hit that sweet spot between finding your space, translating that creatively, impacting positively more people, these will probably generate the benefits from from a business standpoint. But it's tricky. It's tricky even within a company like Danone, a 25 billion euro company, we only probably have a handful of examples there. And we're still pushing to have more of those. So I think the new wave is actually the current wave when it comes to purpose and creativity and driving business effects.
Tom Ollerton 15:34
So I interviewed a guy called Michael Lee, who is the Creative Director on Oatly, he's been on the podcast and been on another show that I do called Advertisers Watching Ads. And their whole new campaign is very much based around the idea of saying to people that it's okay to be plant based sometimes. Whereas I think historically, there's just been this, like, you know, "I'm vegetarian, pescatarian, I'm vegan." And it's like, there's been very distinct kind of delineations between those groups. But this, the rise of the flexitarian is something I think that makes so much sense from a consumer perspective, because, you know, sometimes you want to be good, sometimes you want to be bad, and you want to drink terrible alcohol and get wasted. And sometimes, you know, you want a cucumber sandwich. So I'm curious to know, like, is the opportunity in this kind of flexitarian middle? Or do you think there'll always be a role for the kind of extremist brands and extremist consumers to educate the mainstream?
Patrick Neyret 16:36
No, I think I couldn't agree more with you. I think we are looking now more towards the 700 million imperfect flexitarians than the 7 million perfect vegans, right? Again, back to the point on driving positive impact, and then driving business growth, we want more and more people to join this movement, right? It just makes sense to have a more sustainable, and also healthy plant based diet. But we know that sometimes we just want to eat maybe a burger and have our favorite ice cream, and it's fine. Right? So as long as in the long run, there is a positive trend around it, and more and more people are behind it. Yeah, I fully agree, I mean, we are on the same page when it comes to the Oatly campaign and from your perspective. So I think we need to still deliver products that are tasty, of course, and allow vegans and flexitarians to have a very nice experience, taste is a huge barrier still. But in the end, I think it's about making these brands more mainstream, and sort of leveraging the awareness around the topic, which is everywhere, and here in Germany it's massive in the UK, you know, it's also super, super big. And they're just inviting these people and providing sort of the bridges for these people to join the space of plant-based. Sure.
Tom Ollerton 18:07
So one of the interviews on the podcast last year that really stayed with me was a guy called Emanuel Gävert. I think I've said his name sort of right, he works on Toblerone or did, at Mondelez. And he used to be a climate activist, I think, as well as footballer, oddly. And he said that he realized that he could make more of an impact on the environment by working for a large corporate, because if you can change the way that that brand creates its products, its marketing, and so on and so forth, that actually can have a massive impact on the footprint of that brand. And I think that's a very persuasive message, you know, maybe going back to students or young people in the industry on, you know, wanting to make an impact on the world is that, you know, work for brands that are focused on that. But let's not talk about your current employer, but how would a person who wanted to work in a climate positive or climate protecting brand, how would they work out which ones were talking BS and which ones had the right intentions?
Patrick Neyret 19:08
I think you need to dig deeper into the reports, I think you need to do your research. But I tend to agree with this, with the opinions of your other guests. Because you need scale to change things. Right. So I think the startups and scale ups, potentially they were the first ones to sort of try to drive change. But at this point in time, at least from the FMCG world, I think all of the big companies already realized that we need to do things differently. So we cannot just think about profit, that we need to go beyond that. And think also not only for around shareholders but also stakeholders in general. So that the whole philosophy of being, treating business in a more holistic way. But now, all of the FMCGs got the memo. Right? So I think once you are interested in joining a big company, you do your bit of your due diligence, and you make sure that things are for real. I think we the big companies are more than welcome to have people willing to do things in an exciting, creative, interesting way and drive change. So there's a lot of that. So I experienced that myself. I mean, we have their own brands, and we have plant based brands. And I think the pool around plant based brands is fantastic within the ranks of Danone and that is the same in all of the other big FMCG companies. So yeah, I tend to agree, scale leads to a more impactful change in the medium term, for sure.
Tom Ollerton 20:51
So whose marketing in the purpose and sustainability world do you look at and think, ah, that's amazing. Who are your heroes in that space that are really solving that messaging and commerce challenge?
Patrick Neyret 21:06
Yeah. So I think there's a couple of examples that I think are brilliant, right? So I have a couple. So one is from from some years ago, I think there's this brand, from feminine hygiene products that started lobbying against the VAT, was it in Germany or in Poland, one of the two countries, and they realized that the feminine hygiene products received the higher tax versus the books. So they decided to launch this product as part of books and basically have a lower incidence of taxes in their product and make it more available. So I think that was just a brilliant way to sort of hack the system, and fight for the right cause and make the product more available, that there was a sort of a huge PR campaign, drove a lot of business effect, etc. So it's something that stuck with me. And then I think, when you think about more from a corporate perspective, I think the work that Airbnb is doing, in terms of just hosting the refugees from the Afghanistan some time ago, but also now from Ukraine, I think is just spot on, right? I mean, you could not translate belonging in a more relevant way than just staying in tune to this massive, massive crisis that is happening, and trying to do your role there. So yeah, these are two of the examples that I came across recently that I think are interesting, just very inspiring.
Tom Ollerton 22:45
Patrick, unfortunately, we're at the end of the podcast now. If someone wanted to get in touch with you about anything we've discussed today, how would you like them to do that? Where would you like them to do that? And what makes a really good outreach message?
Patrick Neyret 22:58
So I think LinkedIn is fine. So as long as people read at least the first line of my bio or the header of my profile, that tends to help, right. So I am a marketing person and working in Germany. So potentially the Asian Supply Chain Summit is not so much of my interest. But I mean, yeah, happy to be approached on LinkedIn. But yeah, if people can just read the the header first that usually helps.
Tom Ollerton 23:27
Thank you so much for your time.
Patrick Neyret 23:29
No worries. Thanks for having me.
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