Episode 166 / Elizabeth Windram / Uber / Global Head of Mobility Marketing, Masterbrand and Membership
The Value Of Staying “On Programme”
Elizabeth Windram leads Uber’s global mobility marketing function. Having moved into this position after leading marketing for JetBlue Airways and Barefoot Wines before that, her career is diverse and exciting and she confesses that she is so grateful to have found marketing after starting off in finance. Instead of giving us a Shiny New Object, Elizabeth prefers to focus on staying on programme and being wary of jumping on new trends.
Elizabeth considers herself in equal parts interested in new things and wary of distractions. As she puts it, “I don’t want to ever surrender our core emotional connection [to consumers] to the whims of the marketplace.”
So, how does she make sure the brands she’s in charge of stay relevant and up to date? She doesn’t shun novelty, but she’s focused on “back to basics” thinking which means rejecting what she considers to be a bit of a “Shiny New Object syndrome” in our society today.
Marketing and the digital world can become too complex and daunting if brands are constantly chasing after the latest trends and buzzwords. Instead, Elizabeth prefers to focus on creating human centred brands and fostering true emotional bonds with consumers. If this holds true, then brands no longer need to chase new trends, because they have a programme and a core voice they need to follow.
This is not to say that Elizabeth would not fall in line with a new trend, or at least try it. On the contrary: she always tests and explores what works for the brands she leads, and she also sets aside budget for innovations that may or may not be picked up. However, it’s important to know what your core brand values are so that your message isn’t diluted too much by chasing trends.
A good example of putting this thinking in practice comes from her time at JetBlue Airways. She nearly said “yes” to a TikTok collaboration with influencers, but realised that this would mean they would be telling their story rather than creating their own brand presence. So, this is why Elizabeth’s advice is to pause and understand how and where you can have an authentic voice. After all, “people buy feelings, not products, so [brands need to] connect at a human level.”
Listen to Elizabeth’s vision for staying true to your brand voice, her recommendations for marketing books, and more, in the latest episode of the podcast here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Tom Ollerton 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative. And this is a podcast about the future of marketing every week or so I have the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing one of our leaders. And this week, that's so true. I'm on a call with Elizabeth Windram, who is Global Head of Mobility Marketing, Masterbrand, and Membership at Uber. Elizabeth, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, could you give the audience an overview?
Elizabeth Windram 0:37
Absolutely. Hi, Tom. And thank you so much for having me, it's a real privilege to be here. I lead global mobility marketing for Uber, which is a new role for me. I joined Uber just about five months ago, most recently, I lead marketing at JetBlue Airlines, which is based here in New York City. And before that, I was out at Barefoot Wine, where I had the privilege of leading a wine that was making the world a better place. And, you know, I ended up in marketing. After business school, I had started out my career in finance, where I spent time in an investment bank, and in private equity. So a little bit of a shift there. But I always value that time that I had there. And I will never look back. I love marketing. And I'm just so grateful that I found it. That's what I do.
Tom Ollerton 1:32
So you've got some pretty fancy job titles and brands on on your LinkedIn. So I what I need to know is are you a marketing book person? Or not? Are you someone who shuns the book in exchange for real life hands on experience? Or do you have marketing books that you recommend and buy for your team and so on?
Elizabeth Windram 1:54
I love marketing books. I'm so glad that you asked me that. And I have, I'm always reading the latest marketing material, academic material, whatever I can get my hands on, I really think that, you know, the reason perhaps that I do that is that I want marketing to become much more of a science and it is, it has been over recent years. But I'm always trying to also keep up. So you know, I have a number of books that I love that I tell everyone to read. So I love The Hero and the Outlaw. And just to really dig into brand archetypes if people want to get very wonky and academic. I also love Denise Lee-Yohn. And my team will laugh because I literally buy this book for everybody, it's called What Great Brands Do. It's about brand building principles. And it's just a really great, clear tome about what separates great brands from from the rest.
Tom Ollerton 2:55
And in What Great Brands Do, what are the key things you remember from that book, or like will bang out in a meeting to prove that you're right?
Elizabeth Windram 3:04
Oh, yeah, I bring it out all the time. And maybe I'll even bring these out on this podcast.
Tom Ollerton 3:09
Yeah, do. Please.
Elizabeth Windram 3:10
Like her I think some of the really clear ideas around great brands start inside. And that you know, you can't sort of paint your brand on the wall and have a logo and then not have that brand ethos come through every choice that you make, including those you make internally. That's just a really great, great chapter. I think also great brands sweat the small stuff is another theme that comes through in her work that your brand experience comes through in every touchpoint that you have with your consumers and none are too small to to get right and be thoughtful about.
Tom Ollerton 3:50
You know, that reminds me something I was chatting to our Head of client strategy at Automated Creative, Amy Wright. But she said that, we were talking about work culture and office culture and how we establish ours. We're a small business. And she said that an office culture is how you feel after every single interaction with anyone in that organization. You know, whether it's an email or WhatsApp or a message at the weekend or a drinking session or a holiday or whatever it is and and I thought that's so true, isn't it? It's a combination of all of those tiny touch points and that's really echoed in what you just said there. Am I reading that right?
Elizabeth Windram 4:31
Yeah, yeah, no, precisely.
Tom Ollerton 4:35
So, so go on, I'm keen to know more about the books what are the only because at the start this podcast I saw you hugging a book. What's your next go-to book that you buy for people or quote most often?
Elizabeth Windram 4:51
I love Seth Godin. I honestly do. I listen to his podcast and I have a number of his books. I just think people make marketing very, very complicated. So maybe this is at odds with what I said earlier about, you know, it has to be a science and rigor. But I think a lot of these books help to simplify what we're really doing here, which is connecting our businesses, with people. I'm bringing humanity to, to our work, and, and into the way that we do storytelling. And just a lot of times, it's worth remembering that I think it's just very easy to get into a day to day job where you're very busy. And you're doing the things every day, right, and you've got meetings, and you've got deliverables, and you're leading your team. And it's, for me, it's really good to just be reminded of what we're really doing here, which is not perhaps as complicated as we all make it.
Tom Ollerton 5:55
So I got a question on that. So I've interviewed someone on this podcast before and it really stuck with me what he said, he said that, you need to remove the brand and the BS basically, it's a human talking to a human, right, you're a human at a brand, and you're communicating with a consumer. But yet, we've got all of this stuff in between, right? Which I think is part of your point. So then there's a tension isn't there when it comes to performance, right. So ultimately, I don't know what your KPIs are, but, you know, cost per acquisition of new users or repeat users will come up in some conversations, you have somewhere, I assume. And yet, all of the KPIs we have are really inhuman. You have completion rate, cost per quality page view, you know, lifetime value, all of these things aren't really like, not human sounding things. But yet, if you use your common sense that, like, we need to remove all of the guff in between just from one human talking to another, so I'm curious to know how you marry up that truth that, you know, we need to make it simple with the fact that you work for a heavily tech led organization that will demand all kinds of metrics all over the place.
Elizabeth Windram 7:14
No, of course, it is very interesting coming to a tech company, and even an airline right, to sort of talk about the need for humanity. And so, like, here's what I'd say about the question you just asked, and the point we're circling around, we need all of that data, we need to be able to prove our worth, you know, marketers often don't last long in organizations. And perhaps that's because we're not as data driven as the business requires us to be, there needs to be proof, people want to understand return on investment, I want to understand return on investment, you know, is what we're doing working, is it efficient? So we have to have all that inhuman data behind us, but at its core, people buy feelings, not products, right. And we need to sort of just connect with the feeling and the emotions that we're trying to create in our audience and connect at a very human level. And remember that you know, in thinking about my own personal experience and why I can sort of marry these two things... In undergrad - indulge me here - I double majored in economics and drama. And I didn't understand myself actually, I like, you know, I like these things. There was something about economics, sort of the behavioral economics, especially that just really resonated with me, I liked that there, there was math and there were answers. And it also felt super practical, like I could get a job after college, which was probably a good thing. But drama always really called me to I can't act I'm a terrible, terrible actor, dancer, singer, like you name it. I'm on the board of a theatre, and I love that but always very behind the scenes. But there was something about, there's always been something for me about drama and storytelling. And it took me a really long time to figure out that what I was looking for was marketing.
Sounds like a funny thing to, you know, spend 15 years searching for when the answer was perhaps there all along, but I honestly, I share that because I think it's just really important for every marketer to remember that they're an economist and also perhaps a thespian as well, right. And so we have to do this storytelling and connect with people emotionally. And then that's where we're our brand will ultimately win and be distinguished, but we do have to measure, you know, the activities that we're doing in that pursuit. It's both.
Tom Ollerton 9:53
I think the thespian economist is a great URL.
Elizabeth Windram 10:00
Or we could do like, one act plays about a great marketing campaign. Or like the downfall, you know, it could be very Shakespearean actually.
Tom Ollerton 10:08
Well, my background was in music. And yeah, then equally kind of, sort of fell in love with marketing when I realized that you can be creative and make money at the same time, which is quite difficult. So, so I'd like to know, in amongst all of that, do you have like, a top marketing tip, a bit of silver bullet advice you can share?
Elizabeth Windram 10:30
Yeah, a lot of times, marketers are struggling to figure out when their brand should show up, there's a lot of conversation about brands needing to be in culture, or, you know, very much responding to issues in the world, that matter to people, that matter, because they're consumers, that are happening in their community. And it's, I think, difficult for brands and leaders to figure out what voice their brand should have, and when they should show up. And we have all kinds of tools, and I think brands, Uber's fantastic about this, you know, very clear on our mission, and our values. So you know, these things help guide where, and how you show up. But the advice that I have for people on that, because it can be rather complicated is to once again, simplify and ask yourself, Is my brand mission, my brand ethos, the thing that I believe our brand believes, at its core? Is it under pressure? Is it being directly challenged? And if it is, then those are the moments when you have a point of view. And not just a right but an imperative to do or say something. So I think using that rather simple framework and asking yourself that question, can really help you cut through the noise of when to get involved.
Tom Ollerton 12:16
Can you give me an example?
Elizabeth Windram 12:17
Yeah, I mean, look, here's an example from this week, which is a very difficult and upsetting topic. But you know, in the Ukraine, the horror that is happening in the Ukraine, right now has touched all of us at a deeply personal level. And here at Uber, we, you know, our mission is changing the way the world moves for the better. And we think a lot about right to move, and access to movement and that freedom, right. So that's what our brand is all about. And these people are unable to move freely. And in many cases, they're trying to escape to safety. And so we have not just a right, but an imperative to speak and to act there and so on, you know, in that moment, we've helped our employees and our drivers on the ground who need help getting out, we've offered free rides at the border in Poland. So people can get from that border territory to wherever they need to go at no cost. And we're working to, we're making very large donations as a corporation setting up a match, to help engage our consumer base. And we'll look to partner making donations to the right nonprofits that are engaging on the ground, like the Red Cross and the IRC. So you know, I think that's a really present example of right to move is challenged, we want to change the way the world moves for the better. That is under pressure, we have a response. And frankly, it's also you know, a community that we're in. And I think we have an increased obligation there. So yeah, I mean, many, many examples of that. But I just, I always come back to that framework. And it often helps me cut through those moments where you go, you know, this one really isn't ours, versus Oh, yeah, we're right in the middle of that. That's what we're about.
Tom Ollerton 14:19
And thanks for give me a real life example, that made it really clear. So we are sort of at the halfway stage now. So we're going to talk about your shiny new object, but you've refused to tell me what that is, which makes you unique, as far as this broadcast is concerned. So what is your shiny object that you're so reluctant to tell me?
Elizabeth Windram 14:39
Okay, well, good, I'm glad I'm unique in that way. Perhaps we're dialing up the drama a little bit. And perhaps I've overblown my reluctance, but I think it's really important to stay up to date on you know, new tech and new tools. I love a test and learn. You know, I'm the first person to jump on a new, you know, a new social media tool that launches just to sort of start to engage and say, Okay, how can marketing use this? How can it help us? But I am also extremely wary of distraction. And well, I know nobody wants to get left behind on these things. I think, you know, I don't want to ever surrender our core emotional connection to the whims of the marketplace. And I just really believe in a very back to basics kind of thinking, especially right now, as we're all sort of learning how to be human again, I think at the beginning of this before we started recording is that we're all entry level humans again. So all that to be said, I don't have a shiny new object, because I think that shiny new object syndrome is like part of our problem right now. And it's all getting very complex and very confusing. And marketers feel like, you know, oh, my gosh, how am I going to navigate all of this and still hit my ROI targets. And, like, I just, I kind of just want to stop and say, we're building human centered brands, building emotional connections with our consumers, we don't have to jump on every new trend. And so I don't have a shiny new object, I think my shiny new object is to be wary of the shiny new objects. So you got to change the name of the podcast now.
Tom Ollerton 16:28
Well, it's a slightly ironic title, but it's fine. Okay. Moving on. So, so you're weary? I respect that. So is there any method to your wariness? Are you just like, No, we're building a human centered brand - Let's stay caught. Let's not get distracted. Once again, I will also respect that position. But is there a filter or a process that happens between you downloading the latest app and having a play with it? Saying no, because I assume you're not just like a blanket "no" on anything new? You don't strike me as that kind of person at all. But is there a process? Is there a decision making rationale? Is it a discussion? Help me understand how you get to a no or sometimes a yes.
Elizabeth Windram 17:16
So yeah, so perhaps we can unpack this. I'm actually sort of a default "Yes" person. I'm kind of like, Okay, let's try it. Let's see, let's explore. Maybe it could be, you know, I'll sort of continue to test and learn and explore things. I love to always carve out parts of my budget for just things that like, might not work, but might work. And we'll learn, right? We have to keep keep exploring. So it's not that, it's that I think I get very weary when these trends sort of take over and every marketing conference and podcast is like, what are you doing about personalization? And it's like, well, I don't even know what that means, right? We've all jumped on this buzzword. And we're all like, we haven't really thought through, you know, what are we really trying to do? And not being just swept away a little bit with the new tech and like, oh, we can do this. And people are expecting this. But really just thinking through I don't know if I'm making sense, but what you know, what is it that we're doing? Let's stay on our program? How does this tool help us do that? If it does great. If not, I don't need to be sort of jumping on the buzzword.
So what have you nearly said yes to that you said no to recently?
Mmm hmm. You know, in my in my old role at JetBlue, I nearly said yes to just jumping on Tik Tok with some influencers. And, you know, having them begin to tell our story rather than creating our own brand presence. And I actually paused that and said, No, we can't just jump on. And my team actually encouraged me to sort of take that pause, I'll give them a lot of credit. Because I was like, let's be first let's get on there. Let's just we took that pause to say no, let's actually watch the space and understand how brands can actually have an authentic voice. And then, you know, we thought our brand was worthy of having the right kind of presence. And we spent some time to figure out what that would look like.
Tom Ollerton 19:37
And so I'm curious on Tiktok, are you a TikTok user yourself?
Elizabeth Windram 19:47
I'm very passive. And yeah, so I'm on there and I look at it, my daughter is eight and she's very helpful because now she's into a lot of these things. And she teaches me quite a lot about marketing. She really...
Tom Ollerton 19:59
Really? Tell me what an eight year old is teaching her mom?
Elizabeth Windram 20:04
Oh, yeah, yeah, I think she definitely is aware of, you know, trends and memes and dances and things, right? To the point where I almost don't know how but I think they talked about it at school. And she's also a pretty good read on ads, like we watched the Superbowl ads. And she certainly had a point of view about like, I like this one, or I didn't get what that was about, or I don't get why that was that brand. And I was actually really impressed with the level of rigor that she was able to bring, I think just her gut is right, it probably helps that I talked about ads and my husband is a copywriter. And so maybe we're just like an ad family. But yeah, it's nice, I think having a kid has helped me be a better marketer. I don't know if you've found this, but not only does she help me get really clear about the emotions behind brands and what's resonating and what's not, and what's cool and what's not. I just think having a child has helped me develop whole new levels of empathy.
Tom Ollerton 21:14
Give me an example
Elizabeth Windram 21:17
I mean, I, you know, now I have a very weird comment. But you said weird is Okay, on this comment. Now, when I see people, even if they're frustrating me, I remember that there's somebody's baby. And that really helps me, I think, Ah, we're all just humans. And we all, you know, have a mom who loves them just as much as I love her. And it really helps me to just remember that, maybe we shouldn't need that reminder. But I think becoming a mom really unpacked that for me. Also, by the way, like, you just never know what's going on for people. So the pandemic, I think, this has been discussed at nauseum now, but it was very rough on everyone for their own reasons. And the people having young children, you know, we were, my husband did a lot of this work, but, you know, trying to teach first grade in the living room, while you know, holding down jobs on Zoom was not easy. And so I think, just keeping that with us as we re enter into the new normal, and reminding ourselves that even outside the pandemic, you never know what's really going on in someone's life and how many things they're juggling. And we have to bring that level of compassion to to one another, even even in our work situations.
Tom Ollerton 22:40
That is a beautiful place to finish this podcast. Unfortunately, we've run out of time. So if someone wants to get in touch with you, where would you like them to do that? And what makes a great outreach message to you?
Elizabeth Windram 22:53
Oh, I respond really well to ideas. So you know, just if you have a random thought, I'm here for it. And I love Twitter. So I'm @eswindram on Twitter. You want to send me a note there? That's good.
Tom Ollerton 23:10
Fantastic. Well, look, I've really enjoyed that, that went all over the place. Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time.
Elizabeth Windram 23:18
Thank you
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