Episode 170 / Nathalie Bojkow / PUMA Group / Senior Team Head Global E-commerce | Digital Marketing & Business Development, Growth Markets
Why Brands Should Be More Thoughtful About Their Advertising
Nathalie started her career in search and believes this has helped her learn how technology really works and what role it can play in digital marketing. Now, as Senior Team Head for Global E-commerce in Digital Marketing & Business Development, Growth Markets, at the PUMA Group, she makes sure that the brand’s growing markets are provided with the support they need, while creating advertising that is customer centric. Her Shiny New Object is refocusing on people to make better marketing.
A lot of marketing strategies will say they are consumer centric or that they put the consumer first, but – in reality – advertising today is very disruptive and “annoying” according to Nathalie. The consumer experience tends to be disruptive first, before being an informative exchange between brands and their audiences.
This is what Nathalie is advocating to change. In her words, “I really wish we would do less and better instead, and focus on quality engagement while taking responsibility for the experience we give people when they browse the internet.”
Nathalie thinks that brands have focused too much on the “wrong” data, valuing impressions over what the audience really gets from their ads. 95% of the advertising consumers see every day is irrelevant at the time they see it, so it runs the risk of alienating potential consumers and creating negative brand associations.
What’s the solution to this? For Nathalie, one way out of the overcrowded digital marketing environment is scaling down and creating less content. However, that’s not the only option. Her advice to brands is to really think from a “person’s” perspective, not just as a marketer. Yes, a few conversions are good on a digital ad, but it’s better to build a more positive, liked persona online and reap the benefits in the longer term. Additionally, acknowledging the interruption that ads bring into consumers’ lives is also very powerful. This can be done on video ads, for example on YouTube, and makes the consumer feel understood and respected.
Find out more about how to create consumer centric advertising without compromising the bottom line, as well as other top marketing tips from Nathalie, in the latest episode of the podcast here.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Nathalie Bojkow 0:00
I think the process is start observing how you feel about the stuff you see on the internet day in and day out, right, and look at it through that personal perspective and not as a marketer or as a business.
Tom Ollerton 0:18
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Hello, and welcome to the Shiny New Object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative and this is a weekly podcast where I get to interview cool, clever people who lead the industry about what they think the future of the industry is about. And this week is no different. I want to call with Nathalie Bojkow, who is Senior Team Head, Global E-commerce, Digital Marketing and Business Development, Growth Markets at Puma Group. So Nathalie, now we've taken up a lot of the podcast purely with your job title, could you give us a bit of an overview about who you are, what your journey has been so far, and what you do?
Nathalie Bojkow 1:22
Sure. So my background is I come from search, I started in digital in a search agency, but back in the day when things were still terribly manual, and also in an agency that was building their own technology. So with that background, then I moved on client side, at mytheresa, where I built an in house team also for search marketing across the whole world, really. So that was exciting, exciting time and opportunity. And now in my role at Puma, my team helps our 22 regional ecommerce businesses within marketing. We provide strategic guidance, practical help, technical infrastructure. And my additional responsibility is to help our growing markets with their overall business and help them be seen and heard on a global level and get the support they need to grow their business.
Tom Ollerton 2:22
I think you're the first person that comes from a search background. So just curious to know, what did search set you up for when it comes to doing a global ecommerce role? Or have you forgotten all of that stuff, and it may not even be relevant?
Nathalie Bojkow 2:37
Not at all. And I still get way into it sometimes given that I have an expert on my team who should be in charge of it. And I just can't shut up sometimes. Because I'm really passionate about it. And actually, what someone told me back when I was at that search agency is really knowing search in and out will set you up to manage any digital marketing activities. And I think they were right.
Tom Ollerton 3:02
But can you tell me why?
Nathalie Bojkow 3:03
Because you have all of it. It's by far I think the most complex area with so many moving parts and levers you have. Okay, nowadays, it's much more automated. But back then it was 100% manual. And so that way, that allowed me to really learn how the technology works. Then, as things got more automated, understand really, what are all the things that the algorithms factor in? How can you tweak those and make them work in your favor. And especially since we have, when was that maybe in 2014, or let's say audience targeting. That's what got really exciting. Because in the end, audiences are always more important. It's always more important, who you're talking to and who you're addressing, than which keyword they typed. And so that way, yeah, I got into other channels then afterwards and had no problem really understanding how it works. Also, search is along the entire funnel. And that's also something that is very valuable to learn.
Tom Ollerton 4:17
I would love to spend the rest of the podcast talking about this thing. It's such an interesting insight that search preps you for any complex marketing technology, but also primes you to think through the funnel and then deliver against that. But that's not what this podcast's about, unfortunately. But what I want to do and ask you is within that career trajectory, which new belief or new behavior has improved your work life in the last five years or so?
Nathalie Bojkow 4:41
Well, having entered digital marketing really through a very different perspective. And when I started 11 years ago, data driven or customer lifetime value wasn't common practice yet, right. So getting in there from that really data and analytical perspective and automation perspective was great. But what I realized now or in the past years, is, you tend to forget that, in the end, marketing is always about people. And you can't do good marketing when you don't consider how people are. And that's been a bit the missing piece. And that is also what I want to talk about.
Tom Ollerton 5:32
And what was the eureka moment? When did that land for you?
Nathalie Bojkow 5:36
There was none. Really, there was none. I think I've mentioned it, audiences. And the ability of audience targeting added to search has been a game changer. But also has changed really the focus on from what keywords are we targeting to what people are we targeting, and there was no eureka moment. But I'd say from there, things have built and have come together. And I'd say over the past almost four years that I've been working at Puma and with, with teams across the world, I learned that it's exactly that human factor that makes all the difference. Because the technology is the same everywhere. And people culture can be very different. But at the core, how people behave and what the drivers are, and what they like and don't like, is really universal. And that's the part that we must not forget, not as marketers and not as leaders.
Tom Ollerton 6:40
So as well as that great bit of advice, what top marketing tip do you have that you find yourself sharing most often? With your team?
Nathalie Bojkow 6:48
I guess it's exactly that.
Tom Ollerton 6:51
You can't have the same question twice. That's, yeah, that's not fair.
Nathalie Bojkow 6:56
No, but marketing is not about the technology. It's not about the product or the numbers. It's really about people.
Tom Ollerton 7:03
And what do you say to someone who says, What do you mean? Like, surely it's all about the technology and talk about search and how that's developed? How automation has changed that, then surely, it's about the technology, right? You, you want to get people to come to your website, and so they type in certain words. So therefore, you need a technology that links that action of writing those words, to get the traffic to your website to convert on your product. So help me understand how the human part of that works better, how you solve the complexities of scale when adding humans into what is a largely already automated process?
Nathalie Bojkow 7:35
Well, I guess it's more often a strategic orientation, right? What I've seen, not work well, so many times, is a technology first approach and strategy when we say we need this or that technology, because that's what's the hot shit right now. And we need that. So let's do it but not embed it in that context. How does it help us? How does it make us communicate with people better, as a brand or as a shop. And this is really the key part. We've also seen the best intentions really fail when we apply technology without thinking what it's supposed to do for people.
Tom Ollerton 8:22
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So we're at the halfway stage now. So we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is unsurprisingly, based on our conversation already is refocusing on people to make better marketing. So I think you've laid out your stall to a degree. So what I'd like to do is start to get more specific right so it would seem that your gospel is focus on people. The technology is there to serve the marketing to people, you're speaking from a human to a human, but can you help me understand, without obviously giving away any company secrets, like how you do that? What is the process for that? Is this that do you have like a core philosophy that works across all channels? Or do you take that on a channel by channel basis? Help me understand how you apply this refocusing on people to make better marketing.
Nathalie Bojkow 9:45
Again, there is no process for it, right? It's really about checking yourself and how you think and what you observe. And if you look at digital marketing in general, it does not have a good reputation. It is not something that people enjoy or like, it's mostly perceived as being intrusive, annoying, distracting. So I think the process is start observing how you feel about the stuff you see on the internet day in and day out, right? And look at it through that person perspective and not as a marketer or as a business. I think a good example would be, I checked out this champagne website, didn't have a lot of purchase intent was more browsing and looking around on the weekend, and then on Monday morning, so...
Tom Ollerton 10:33
Is that what you do at the weekend, Nathalie?
Nathalie Bojkow 10:36
Why not?
Tom Ollerton 10:37
Entertain yourself just perusing champagne website sounds like, why not? Good point, why not carry on.
Nathalie Bojkow 10:44
So Monday morning at 6:30am, I got up, I checked my social feeds, as you do at breakfast, and I got flooded with ads from, I think, 10 different brands and shops at 6:30 in the morning. So even though, let's say the creative might have been really attractive, and nice, and it really did make me feel like having a glass of champagne, for all the wrong reasons, probably. But most of all, it made me frustrated. Because I can't have that now. And I can't do that now. And it's just not the time and place for it. And that is one of the basic thoughts and basic considerations that we tend to not have anymore, because we're relying on all that automation so much. And this is a thought that only a human can add. Right.
Tom Ollerton 11:32
So I've been thinking about this quite a lot. Recently, I saw a post from a very senior figure in the industry. And what that person was doing was bemoaning about the fact that someone, that a salesperson had outreached to that person. And this person is very senior at a very famous platform. And this person was complaining that the automation had sort of served him a rubbish ad because this person said, Hey, person, would you like to learn more about this? And, and this was the core competency of one of the top five digital platforms. And he was on LinkedIn saying, Look, this is stupid. Why would you approach this company about this core competency? Right? And then it made me think, yeah, that's kind of fair enough, but definitely automated that outreach. 100%. But isn't that kind of what brands are doing anyway, they just kind of sprang out a message to an audience in the hope that it lands at the right person at the right time. But because the impression is so cheap, it doesn't matter if you're spraying people with the wrong message at the wrong time. And so I'll push that kind of back onto you. So, sure, you got alcohol adverts too early in the morning when you didn't want them and it wasn't necessary. But ultimately, does that matter, who loses here, I mean sure you lose a few seconds of attention. But ultimately, you'll stay in the funnel for that purchase. So I was kind of arguing the side of the the advertiser here. But what's your take on that?
Nathalie Bojkow 12:52
Of course, and I know exactly what you mean, because that's what everyone does right now. But that's exactly what I think has brought us here. Well, 95%, at least of the advertising you see day in day out is irrelevant at the time you see it, and there's way too much of it as well. So just because on paper and looking at the data, it's still profitable for you to do this activity. You're still spamming the other 95% who don't click and are not interested. And it's everything so cluttered and crowded and there's so much going on, I really wish we would do less and better instead, and focus on quality engagement and really take responsibility for the experience we give people when they browse the internet.
Tom Ollerton 13:41
And so what do you think the solutions are? And I was listening to the Pivot podcast this morning, the Scott Galloway one anyway. And you know, he was talking about their new subscription models where like, will users move towards a model where you pay to be in a like a media ecosystem, like Apple's, for example. And then you are going to completely remove all of these kind of unwanted ads? Yes, sure. There'll be ads within that. But do you think that consumers will want to pay for a more premium experience where it is less cluttered? Or is the fact that there's just going to be this huge audience of people are just going to want stuff for free and are prepared to pay the price of attention?
Nathalie Bojkow 14:22
Well, I think there'll always be people who are ready, then to pay to not see ads, but even all of those who won't or can't, why can't we make it nicer for everyone? And there is the necessity of coming up with ways of you know, not being bothered by ads because they are bothering people is to be more thoughtful about what we are showing and when and to whom, right if there wouldn't be subscription models like that, if generally, advertising wasn't perceived as something really bad and annoying. And it's actually a shame we got there. Because we do have the technology and the data to do a lot better for everyone.
Tom Ollerton 15:09
So you're saying two things that I find equally exciting and I'm equally passionate about, the first of which is that it makes business sense just to spray these ads out there. Right? Like it has a return that yields more return than the cost of putting it out there. So that's, that's good. That's good business.
So there's a gulf between those those two things. Right. So how do you, how are you starting to redress that sort of that chasm between those two things?
Nathalie Bojkow 15:45
I think the data perspective is valid to a certain point, but it's just not enough. Even if let's say you're spraying impressions, and all of that is profitable for you on paper, because a few people then clicked and bought something, and it's all good. If you think about all the other ones that didn't react and for whom the message and the ad was not relevant. What do you do with them? And what can the impact be? I think it can be very damaging, actually, to a brand or a business annoy people often enough, and when they see your name, they will have negative feelings. And that's what it's about. It's considering how people feel.
Tom Ollerton 16:24
So okay, I'm going to agree with you. So how do you do that? How do you solve that problem? How are you making sure that every time anyone sees one of your ads on whatever platform that even if someone doesn't want to buy something, that it creates a positive impression, or at least a neutral one?
Nathalie Bojkow 16:41
It's really about thinking about how we want to make people feel, right, we know, fear, for example, is a major driver and fear can sell very well. But that doesn't mean it's right and we should do it. It would be better for everyone if we thought not just about what is the product we want to get out there and the message and all those features, but how do we want to make people feel, it should be a positive interaction. And I think it's our responsibility to make sure that our marketing either informs, really gives something useful, educates or just simply entertains or makes someone smile. I mean, how many ads do you see everyday and how many of those make you smile or say oh, yes, this is great. It's super rare.
Tom Ollerton 17:28
Yeah. Not a generally my experience of other people's online advertising. I was interviewed on the podcast about this. And I think one of the tensions is that, if you really want to do empathetic, user centric, emotionally aware advertising, you wouldn't do it at all, because like, you know, my pet hate for paid content is when I'm looking at a recipe, you know, you're over, I don't know if you use recipes, I do a bit but I just want the recipe. But yeah, I have to scroll through slowly loading ads, that are made, probably only I don't even care if the ads are about cooking. Or if they are just like, what I want is the shortest amount of time to the ingredient list as possible. I'm fairly handy in the kitchen, I can make, I just need to know, I just need to know what's in it. I'll make everything else up. So I don't want much, you know, I don't need to be taken on a story. And so therefore any ad is detrimental to that experience. And that's just me. But so. So therefore any ad that is interruptive isn't empathetic, it isn't user centric, it's disruptive. How do you deal with that? Or is it just a case of you're always gonna piss someone off? So you might as well do in a beautiful way?
Nathalie Bojkow 18:35
No, not quite. I think being very transparent and acknowledging the fact that, at least in the state that it's in, digital marketing is just a necessary evil that we all have to deal with, I'd say might as well make the best out of it. But also be very open about it, what I've seen what I really like, and often that's, you know, small digital native companies that are really customer centric, and that make product that is made for customers and to meet customers' needs and so on. And sometimes they do a fantastic job at that. And they, for example, you're on YouTube, right? You look for how to remove a wine stain from your carpet, because that just happened. And then you get an ad, right? Because they're just there and acknowledging the interruption is really powerful. And I've seen that and it always made me feel understood and positive about that advertiser.
Tom Ollerton 19:38
So I understand how that works in a linear viewing experience. Like YouTube, for example. I want to learn abut this thing, oh there's an ad, okay, I'll give it two seconds of my time. And then I'm sorry to interrupt you but like we would like to add to the thing you're going to watch but get back to my recipe scenario where I'm kind of flicking through and I'm just trying to get the recipe and I'm like there's a car there's a plane and there's a whatever I wouldn't be able to acknowledge that they, their acknowledgement, because I wouldn't even, I'm not even looking at it. It's just it's literally like the page won't load because there's a unit that hasn't pulled the ad in. So so how do you deal? How do you approach that situation?
Nathalie Bojkow 20:16
I think this is where that whole, less is more thinking comes in. Of course, as advertisers, we can't really influence how much ads publishers cram on their pages, but we can from an advertiser standpoint, we can finally start not looking at impressions anymore. Impressions are never go by itself and focus on impressions is what got us there, that we see pages that are just, you know, full of ads and slow loading and give an overall terrible experience and a bad reputation to digital marketing.
Tom Ollerton 20:54
So unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave it there. And I think that we've kind of opened a wound here on this podcast and really, you know, looked at the like the grisly details, but I am really moved by your unflinching desire to make it better for the consumer in any way that you can. And yes, there's a ton of questions there that we've asked, but we haven't been able to solve. But I think if everyone had your intention to deliver an entertaining, fun, heartwarming, great experience in every touchpoint, then the internet would be a better place. And I feel really grateful that I've been able to help you draw that line in the sand and make that statement.
Nathalie Bojkow 21:29
Thank you so much, I've, I could go on about it forever, I'd say yes. To conclude, the first step is, you know, be a person first, not a marketer first and think like a person. And it starts with yourself, there's a process, it's the way of thinking and acknowledge that the state of things is maddening for everyone involved. And it's not working great. So we can all do better. And we should strive to do better. And many of us and probably people who listen to your podcast are in a position where they can do that. And this is why I wanted to talk about that.
Tom Ollerton 22:04
So if anyone would like to get in touch with you, Nathalie, to talk about this topic or any other, how would you like them to do that? And where would you like them to do that?
Nathalie Bojkow 22:13
LinkedIn is great. I don't tweet. So LinkedIn is great. If somebody wants to contact me, if you have something to sell, same thing, just be a person get straight to the point what you want. We all hear way too much. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody wants that. Just let me know how you think you can really help me. And if it's just for networking, yeah, then just send me an invite and tell me what do you want to talk about? I'm always happy to talk about those things
Tom Ollerton 22:42
Nathalie, thank you so much for your time.
Nathalie Bojkow 22:56
Thank you, Tom.
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