Episode 258 / John Sadeghipoor / URBN / Director of Marketing, Free People Europe
When Data & Imagination Converge
The future of data driven marketing is inextricably linked to tech development. For John Sadeghipoor, the evolution of Apple Vision Pro and “face computers” heralds the inevitable ubiquity of 3D Worlds - his shiny new object.
John is the Director of Marketing, Free People Europe in the URBN Group. On the podcast, we talk about his career evolution through the world of fashion and retail, as well as his new behaviour development to lean into mindfulness, mental health, and balance.
Data Is Purely A Consequence of Actions
The relationship between creative and data needs to take into consideration the original stimulus. As John puts it: “unless there’s something in the real world that’s stimulated someone to search, [your marketing] is purely based on what you’re not giving… like you’re not giving fuel to a race car.”
This perspective underscores the importance of investing in creative execution: "Your investment isn't purely other media, or media partner. It's how you're going to execute the creative and how much you're going to invest in that creative." We talk about the significant sums that models and creators command for their work, as an example of investments that can make or break a campaign.
The Rise of 3D Worlds
3D worlds could revolutionise the future of data-driven marketing. John envisions a future where these 3D worlds, powered by lightning-fast data speeds and hyper-realistic visuals, will enable immersive experiences for entertainment, commerce, and even mental health. As he notes, "You can immerse yourself in not just 3D worlds, but interactive films or movies, or games, or just shopping experiences, and the commercial side of this is you can reach a global audience."
Tune in to the podcast to get the full conversation.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
John Sadeghipoor 0:00
We often forget that the creative or the message or the copy or the audience or the creator is the stimulus to driving an action which then generates output and the data data is purely a consequence of actions.
Speaker 1 0:15
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Tom Ollerton 0:44
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton and the founder of automated creative the creative effectiveness ad tech platform. And this is a podcast about the future of data driven marketing. This week, I am here with John Sadeghipoor, who is Director of Marketing free people Europe. So John, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do. Can you give the listeners a bit of background?
John Sadeghipoor 1:10
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. It's amazing to be here in Cannes.
Tom Ollerton 1:16
Oh, yes, sorry. We are in Creative X's they call it a maison or whatever. Anyway, we're overlooking wherever that is in Cannes. Lovely. See? So thank you guys.
John Sadeghipoor 1:27
What's it look? It's incredible view that really nice place. See, this might help.
Tom Ollerton 1:34
But what was your path to get here?
John Sadeghipoor 1:36
A night train from Paris, 12 hour train overnight. With what can be described as a K Pop girl band. Five other beds in this slight tiny room. It was a bit surreal, woke up dreaming as well thinking there's some of that sitting at the end of my bed. Hopefully there was a dream. But yeah, just literally got off the train. And here I am.
Tom Ollerton 2:01
And what was your career journey before that weird adventure?
John Sadeghipoor 2:05
Yeah. So yeah, where should I begin, I guess grammar school doing computer science, learning about like architecture and code and all that all that fluffy, boring stuff. But then like learning to make websites HTML and stuff like that. At the time, it was all like your Nokia engage. And, you know, I was into gaming, so like, you know, websites and things like that. It's like, you know, snake that era, and then going on, like, coupled with economics and business. Learning about like the tech companies, obviously the rise of Facebook at what MySpace, just having fun, like creatively, like creating profile pages, and you know, what it was all about. And then yeah, went on to Kingston uni. studied Business Information Systems Design, shifted, actually was doing computer science degree and shifted because I just wanted to get more into econ. And the professor of econ at the time, way ahead of his time as Jonathan Briggs. He was running a digital agency and they were like, you could count them on your hand at the time, doing like really cool quintessential brands. Paul Smith, one of them and I was working at same time in a designer clothes shop in Kingston, just outside bentos and so yeah, love of like Fashion and Retail and also like the digital like world was just like evolving as seen on screen.com had just come about. So you had like the squinted and minted you know, see a soup. You have a David Beckham Belstaff picture and then he'd have a super dry like faux leather jacket and yeah, it was it was interesting to me found my way into the owner of this designer clothes shops, like good books and he took me buying got great experience on that. And then launch designer dash fashionista at CODIT. UK was selling women's handbags. Didn't have licenses. So it didn't last long. But in the end like that was that was doing quite a good trade. And then I went on to join big like UX marketing agency. They have been working with Burberry and firetrap jeans and Ben Sherman and all these like cool British British brands and yeah, that's where I cut my teeth, affiliate marketing, paid search paid social CRM lead gen and yeah, like you know, creative stuff like you know, and also like daily trade. So like every morning I'd be in at like half 8, and I'd be into Google Analytics getting, you know, all the numbers bestsellers, sending that around and and you know, it was a, I still do that today. Even if three people on my team think I'm absolutely mad because I'm like, obsessed since I wake up I'm straight into numbers, how did we do yesterday? How are we trending? You know, what was conversion like? How's the traffic channels, etc So yeah, yeah after agency I went to Arcadia was at Topshop top man that was wicked really good fun, despite all of the nonsense in the news, like fantastic business, great brand great products, but above all people. And I think that's like, one of the main reasons I'm hearing Ken is like, there are so many different brands and businesses and retailers. But like there's only a handful of like humans that actually run the business and the industry. And I think that like humans, human interaction and relationships is so important. Yeah, and then fast forward to, like now married, two kids, life's changed. Your priorities are different. And yeah, I guess we'll come to the next question. It's kind of quite poignant.
Tom Ollerton 6:21
In the last five years or so, which new belief or behavior has changed your work life?
John Sadeghipoor 6:28
Definitely. For me, mental health is, you know, number one. And you know, family first is a motto, I live by health before wealth, you know, you can be chasing a dream. There's so much stuff on TikTok and YouTube that like, isn't the right thing to do. But I think like, for me, like, it sounds cheesy, but like, apps like Buddha, phi, and calm, are excellent. For like a morning meditation. Or just just being mindful of, you know, having time to reflect and just breathe. And you know, because we work in high pressure environment. We've got big goals, you know, big objectives. Gotta hit your KPIs.
Tom Ollerton 7:20
If you check in your Google Analytics, when you wake up, you definitely need to meditate. That is is a terrifying combination.
John Sadeghipoor 7:29
It's like, I mean, my ritual, my routine is you look at the numbers, log them. And then and get straight out. Like, as soon as like, my, my wife gets up, because usually I'm up early with the kid, it's older. I'll get out and I'll run. And I'll do I'll do a 5k every day, today's like an exception, because I literally just got off the train. But I'll hopefully get into the sea if I can, at some point. But yeah, running is like massive, I used to cycle every day from Shoreditch to Kentish town, and back. And then after that, I was cycling from like, Shoreditch to Putney, which was brilliant, really good fun, and I got really fit actually bit fitter than I am now.
Tom Ollerton 7:29
But so you give me an insight into your world, which is very revealing. But let's get to the job. So what is the best bit of advice that you give to your teams about data driven marketing? What is that silver bullet that you find yourself sharing most often?
John Sadeghipoor 8:36
I think more often than not the fact that data is. And someone who was mentoring me back in the day told me there. So data is purely a consequence of actions. And so we often forget, certainly not a free people, we're really we're really like, focused on this. But we're often forget that the creative or the message, or the copy, or the audience, or the creator, if you're working with someone on this is the stimulus to driving an action, which then generates output and the data. And so when we're looking at budgets, we actually, you know, and I myself, like I've become more and more tuned to this, but like your investment isn't purely other media, or media partner. It's how you're going to execute the creative and how much you're going to invest in that creative at a given example. You wouldn't believe kind of some of the numbers that you know, models or craters command for, you know, ad uses and writes for like Global out of home or European out of home. And, you know, we've had to accept that because we know like, it's it can it can make or break the difference between someone seeing an ad in the real world on a billboard and being stimulated by it, feeling good about it, having a really strong like emotional reaction to it, and then go on to search on Google, you know, soak up 100% of our budget into p max, but unless there's something in the real world that's stimulated someone to search, you know, it's just purely like, based on what, you know, you're not giving. You're not giving any like fuel in the race car. You don't I mean, like, you're not getting the Nitro or the NAS shock. A Fast and Furious reference. Old school. But yeah, you know, like, that is like the silver bullet. Definitely.
Speaker 2 9:24
So really keen to get a bit deeper on that, because I, there's these two worlds that are colliding, right, so you've got, I went to, like a performance marketing conference a little while ago. And someone said on stage, and when the most important thing, 60 or 70% is down to the creative and like all these people wrote it down, you know, creatively, um, that is a ginormous black hole that like, Well, what do you mean creative? Like, you can't just say the creative like, that is just ginormous. And then on the other hand, you've got like, the top of funnel guys who are creating stuff, then you go, yeah, well, you've got to optimize it in for in a performance environment. And then a walk for a walk, you know, and there's this there's a there's a gap there. Yeah. Because all the all the all the ad tech guys go, oh yeah creative. You're creative and nodding, you don't really know what that means. And equally, the creative people aren't thinking about where this thing's gonna end up when it comes on platform. So I like the the NAS or the Nitro example is nice yet, like, without the thing that's going to drive a motion, you're not going to get the digital action that you're after. So how do you bridge that gap?
John Sadeghipoor 12:07
I think, fantastic CMOs. That's the number one role they play, bridging marketing teams and analytics teams and digital teams, ecomm teams and creative teams. We're blessed with a really good one. And, you know, provides that connection, but also that inspiration, support and like framework to, to, you know, focus on best in class, creative, creative testing, but then also backed up by measurement and reporting and data, which is, as I say, like, that's the mantra, that's the, that's the after action, you know, that's the data that's that's like, telling you the read if, and also, like, you know, it's not 100%, you know, there are so many like measurement tools now, which, you know, is still in our infancy. And we've got all sorts of like, you know, privacy, you know, good things, obviously to protect people's privacy, but at the same time, though, don't help retailers or brands measure performance as perfectly as they used to.
Tom Ollerton 13:26
This episode of the shiny new object podcast is brought to you in partnership with Madfest whether it's live in London or streamed online to the global marketing community, you can always expect the distinctive and daring blend of fast paced content startup innovation pitches and unconventional entertainment from Madfest events, you'll find me causing trouble on stage recording live versions of this podcast and sharing a beer with the nicest and most influential people in marketing. Check it out at www.madfestlondon.com.
So let's say let's get on an overnight train. But I'm gonna go with this and go into the future. Right. So what is your shiny new object? Well, I know what am I saying? I never asked that question. Your shiny new object is 3d worlds. So I'm really surprised by that. So I want to learn I want to get out of your head. Why 3d worlds is your shiny object. Why do you think it represents the future of data driven marketing?
John Sadeghipoor 14:27
I mean, it for me like I imagine, in 10 years time, probably not even 10 years time, right? Because even now, you've got the apple vision Pro, right? Have you used it?
Tom Ollerton 14:43
I have not.
John Sadeghipoor 14:44
It's insane. Like, it's as close as you can come at the moment to like getting into the matrix. I mean, the meta the meta headset is like, not anywhere near doesn't get near it. So but still, it's Something like, you know, basically it's like, the meta headset is like a snares. And, you know, the apples is, like the latest thing, you can basically get a Yeah, it's a shiny new object. And I've always been attracted to shiny objects. But yeah, basically, imagine in a few years time or even like, you know, in the next couple of years where, you know, you've got device, whether or not you want to put it on your head or not, like that's, that's, you know, that's going to become, I feel like, you know, kids in 10 years time, you know, 10 year olds, now they're gonna be 20, and they're gonna be your new like, Gen Z or whatever the letter is like. And you combine that with insanely fast connection speeds data, like you know, 10 100 times the speed of 5g, six g, and you'll be able to stream 8k, you know, maybe we'll get to 16k video that's going to be hyper realistic, like more realistic than you and I are looking at each other right now. And you can come to Cannes, you can immerse yourself in an incredible world for perhaps mental health. Or, you know, the commercial element, like, you see luxury brands right now are creating like, 3d spaces, like on desktop on. I was in Barcelona last week at shop talk. And I met this lovely lady who had created a 3d world for Ralph Lauren, and several other businesses, like Moncler, and I think they're talking about French fashion house as well Chanel, etc. And in fact, I went to a Spanish, like medical optical retailer, and they had a Chanel, like, it looked like a photobooth you got in there. And it was augmented reality, you could try on the latest or you could try on the whole collection and it's pretty cool. And then, you know, smart, lead gen data capture, yes, put your email address in if you want to, you know, get get the picture emailed to you and you agree, obviously, to marketing. So they're building their base off of your real world anyway, come back to 3d worlds, right? 3d worlds. You know, as a gamer, you know, from like, the days of doom, or Quake analysis, like the call of duty and the Modern Warfare like COVID, I think I felt like every guy and a lot of girls were playing to escape reality. And yeah, like, it is really escapism. So you can combine like incredible tech hardware. Fantastic, like data speeds, you can immerse yourself in not just 3d worlds, but like, interactive films or movies, or like games, or just like shopping experiences, and you know, what, like, the commercial side of this is you can reach a global audience. And, you know, you can, you can quite quickly using automation sense checked by human you know, to translate your kind of site into a 3d world, which you could explore the latest collection or just have fun. I think that's missing from now it's all very functional.
Tom Ollerton 18:32
There's so with all of the the big tech and out tech things that have arrived being shiny new objects and stuck around, they've all had like a core thing that they do, right? So, like the internet, you could use to access the world's information, right? Mobile, you could you could make a call while being on the move. Whereas like, some things have kind of fallen over like, like voice tech, like it has, you know, I mean, I've had Amazon Alexa or similar for 10 years now. And it hasn't evolved my use of it. And it's like, what is the one thing that I can't live without? I think that doesn't exist, right? For me, I'm sure there's lots of uses, but and where and where I am with with 3d worlds, whatever you want to call it. It's like, well, what is that? What is the thing that everyone's gonna do? And like the immediate one for me is gaming, but I'm not. I'm a very casual gamer. Yeah. So like, is there a is there a game that's better? on a on a face computer? That is better than like a handheld experience, like on a TV? Like, what is the thing that everyone's going to do to make it impossible not to have a headset? Because without that, then the marketing opportunities this I think still Slim
John Sadeghipoor 19:51
That's a really good question. A lot of the companies are making it like for work Microsoft, things like that they're launching like the 3d office and like suite, which, you know, is incredibly mundane and boring, but like it could, it could imagine, you know, the paperclip in your eye, like, you know, the AI with like, you know, imagine, like incredible like, like power and speed and calculation like it could do, it could create your spreadsheets, you know, in your base. It's all I know, it sounds so awful, but I'm just saying like, like, what, what if, because I know is the future for those guys. So that's what they're working on. Like, and also, like, AI and machine learning can actually create 3d worlds. for you based on your brief pretty quickly, you know, versus someone having to go back to the days of coding the C++ or, or whatever, like HTML JavaScript. Yeah, like you can, you can just speed up the processes so much, so much quicker and more efficiently.
Tom Ollerton 21:13
Yeah, I'm, so I have this I have this theory, right. And you can laugh at me about this. Right. But we've big tech has grown and grown and grown. Don't need to tell you this, you know, but it's kind of there's this kind of, like, upwards trajectory of like, value and growth. Yeah, of Google and meta right, you know, after 20 years, looking at Nvidia, right? Yeah, exactly. Right. Really good, more valuable than Apple, no offense. However, they the penetration of mobile phones, and the Internet, in terms of the world's population is getting there. It's not there, but it's pretty much there. So at that point, the only new market every year that will become available in the world is these new kids that get older, get a mobile phone, right, which I'm not it's not an insignificant number of people. But it's not that many versus how many digital has converted in the last 20 years. Right. So the the big growth tech companies, your Google's in your app was there, they're running out of customers, basically. So I think what this play is this, this heads up play that face computer thing is like, well, we need someone else to sell them. We need to play they need to find a way to sell this face computer, Vision Pro or whatever. Yeah, to the people. They've already sold a mobile phone to otherwise they can't keep their growth up. Yeah.
John Sadeghipoor 22:30
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I think you also... I heard a really good stat, well not good. It's awful. That was 20% of boomers. So that's, that's slightly older people. Shop online. I couldn't believe that stat. And that's, that was from epsilon imrg event last last week. 20%. So 80% of that. So they might have the device, but they're not using it to shop. So there's still stages in to use the funnel stages to go before people like actually, like there's still massive market opportunity is my point. And we're talking about a shiny new object that's going to be adopted by you know, early adopters naturally, and people who are more akin to like the 3d worlds like Minecraft, you know, I forgot the fortnight. So that's like, insanely popular, and Roblox is even getting any younger, right? So that eight year olds, you know, in 10 years time, they're 18. And they are familiar and accustomed to these gaming spaces, but they're not just gaming. They're entertainment spaces like Travis Scott, he'll do a concert on these things
Tom Ollerton 23:58
that he did that didn't mean that but that was three years ago. Yeah, but it's not a thing that bar so now, does it happen all the time now.
John Sadeghipoor 24:05
So and you know, what happens? They'll just like, they'll just like do they'll just like do it. Unplanned it we like, bang, everyone's online notification. You know, it could be Taylor Swift you know, she's she's live from somewhere and then suddenly, like the whole world is watching. So really, you know, it's a numbers game. You know, as as you were saying, like, the more and more young people that are, you know, getting older. They've got incredible powerful devices. The iPhone, the humble iPhone has become like the most powerful, like, handheld computer. Forget face computers for a second like you can just slip your phone into a cardboard thing. And it becomes, I don't know if you use it, you can just like for a few pence, you can put it into a cardboard thing. Put it on your face, and like somehow the brain Ben gets confused into thinking you've got a 4k headset on. It's a remarkable. And that's now.
Tom Ollerton 25:07
So John, we have to leave it there. I feel like with three drinks in on the kind of loose tongs are worried coffees. Yeah. And if someone wants to get in touch with you, where is the best place to do that? And what makes the message that you'll respond to?
John Sadeghipoor 25:26
LinkedIn professionally. You can also find me on my YouTube channel, we've got a cool project going on at the moment with an alpha male classic from 1999 GTB handle is JT 124 JYT, W, E, 124. And Instagram.
Tom Ollerton 25:46
Well, we've done 250 episodes of this podcast, and no one has come come back with a YouTube channel or vintage car YouTube channel. So congratulations on being unique brand
John Sadeghipoor 25:58
marketers or performance marketers who actually do it from the flip side to see what it's like as a content creator. And that is like, again, like you know, talk about creative like you've got to, you've got to see it from from the other side. Beautiful place to leave it, John,
Tom Ollerton 26:11
thank you so much.
John Sadeghipoor 26:12
Thank you very much.
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