Episode 257 / Beverly Jackson / Zillow / Vice President of Brand and Product Marketing
Using AR to Transform Home Buying & the Importance of Data Scientists
Zillow has always been committed to innovation and, as Beverly Jackson, Vice President of Brand and Product Marketing, tells us on the latest episode of the Shiny New Object podcast. They’re now ‘all in’ with the new Apple Vision Pro, offering a unique immersive app that is changing the game in house purchasing.
For Beverly, the Immerse app is her shiny new object, marrying an attention to data and insights with use of AI and AR. Launching an app for a very new piece of technology may seem bold, but it reflects the way Zillow has always worked, embracing technology and trying to offer unique, personalised customer experiences.
Work to deliver this app has taken place in the way that Beverly recommends all data driven marketers do - by listening to the data scientists. This is her top tip: “We're at a place now where marketers can no longer afford to just stick their finger up to the sky and see which direction the wind is blowing or go on instinct alone. You have to have some data to sort of back up what you're doing so listen to your data scientists.”
In her team at Zillow, she includes data scientists around the table from ideation through to delivery phase. This helps her triangulate with “softer” data sources and an ongoing learning process to always improve briefs.
Find out more about using data scientists, how AR is revolutionising home buying, and why unplugging is Beverly’s best new habit, in the full podcast episode.
Transcript
The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.
Beverly Jackson 0:00
We're at a place now where marketers can no longer afford to just stick their finger up to the sky and see which direction the wind is blowing or go on instinct alone. You have to have some data to sort of back up what you're doing so listen to your data scientists
Speaker 0:15
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Tom Ollerton 0:38
Hello, and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of automated creative the creative effectiveness ad tech platform and I am here in Cannes in the south of France in Creative X's core maison HQ. So thanks so much to you guys. And I am here with a very special guest. It's Beverly Jackson, who is vice president of brands and Product Marketing at Zillow. Beverly, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do. Could you give the listeners a bit of background?
Speaker 1 1:15
Hey, Tom, my name is Beverly. But this is not my first go around here at Cannes because I have been in marketing for more than 25 years. Very involved in the early stages of digital marketing, Tribune interactive places like the Grammys, MGM Resorts, Activision, Call of Duty, Twitter. And now I find myself at Zillow having the time of my life. So much fun.
Tom Ollerton 1:45
Right, I can't leave that one. Why is it the time of your life? How's that How's a more fun than Call of Duty, for example?
Beverly Jackson 1:52
Oh, it's more fun than any of those things, because we are working on something really, really cool. And probably the most important projects in my career. And if we can nail it, and it's my shiny new object, I'll be super excited about it.
Tom Ollerton 2:07
More on that later. So before we get to your shiny new object, what question for you, so we can get to know you a little bit. What new belief or behavior in the last five years has changed your workplace.
Beverly Jackson 2:20
Now in the last five years, wow, the pandemic, working remotely, all the things that have happened, the way we think differently about our relationships with people in work and the world, I would have to say the one for me, is the ability to unplug. It's always been really difficult for me, I previously had a job, where I was also responsible for crisis communications as a part of my role in brands and digital strategy. And that meant being always on, being tied to what was happening in a very complicated physical environment, and lots of customer needs and lots of news related activities changing my day, and it was very difficult to unplug, like, honestly, I have to tell you, I used to sleep with both my phones, I would sleep no more than about two hours a night, it was crazy. wasn't eating really well. could remember most things, and I was on edge all the time, like waiting for something bad to happen, or the next bad thing to happen. And I think after the pandemic, and then learning to work from home and work remotely a couple things, unplugging, meeting people where they are having relationships that were non transaction based. And so picking up the phone and getting on a zoom with someone and just saying, How are you like what's going on in your backyard? Why there's so many birds chirping in your backyard? Why do I hear the birds? Wait, what's your kid's name? Is it a cat or a dog? Like just being able to like have relationships with people that aren't based on? Where's your report? When's it due? Why haven't you done it yet, like and giving performance reviews, really just unplugging and at the end of a Friday or at the end of the 10 hour day, walking away from the computer and walk away from that little room and closing the door? Closing the laptop, taking a deep breath and enjoying the rest of my life.
Tom Ollerton 4:25
Can you tell me how you got to the point of realization where you had to do that mean two hours a night that's not sustainable? That must have hurt, a wheel must have fallen off? Are you able to share like what was the kind of like, right, that's it? That's enough?
Beverly Jackson 4:39
Sure. So most of the jobs that I've had have always included brand and communications and digital strategies, it's sort of how I've grown my career over the last 20 years or so. And what happens with like digital and comms and brands coming together, is you get a lot of issues with like brand reputation, crisis, comms, digital information signals come a lot faster than they would come previously. And I was just not burned. Like, just like my mind was fried. I was so on edge. And everything felt like an emergency, I always felt really tense. I carried the stress on my shoulders, I realized that I was like, putting on weird weight and my skin was bad. And I wasn't drinking enough water not getting enough sleep. And someone who cares about me said, Have you ever stopped. And I hadn't. And I realized I hadn't stopped for about seven years, swung really, really, really hard. And it was the nature of the roles that I had, wanting to do a good job, but also being very type A and very driven, wanting to be successful not wanting to fail. And realizing that I was going to crash in a big way. And so this person who cared about me, asked me one simple question, like when was the last time you stopped. And I took some time off about six weeks before I took the Zillow role. And during that time, I like reconnect with family, reconnected with friends, did things that have nothing to do with work, found some things that I really, really love, and reconnected with those things. Right before the pandemic, I got a dog. So I got like a pandemic pup, and it's a velcro dog. So first of all, his name is pepper the salt puppy. He is He keeps me really busy. And, and I think going on a walk with your dog or cuddling with your dog, your dog loves you unconditionally. I think like kids and pets just do that for you. And it was something else to care about other than work, and it was amazing.
Tom Ollerton 6:54
We've had your switch off advice, we've had your get a dog, turn off, go back to what's important, rediscover the things you love. But now we're gonna get into the weeds of digital marketing, what is your best advice? What's your best tip for data driven marketing? So when your team comes to you for leadership, and you go look, guys, just remember this one thing? What is that?
Beverly Jackson 7:14
Listen to the data scientists. And so we're very fortunate at Zillow. And this is that we have a lot of really smart people from our founders who are still in seat, to just these teams that are really, really smart, we happen to also be a very performance based focus business. And so marketing has always been a lot about art and science. We're at a place now where marketers can no longer afford to just stick their finger up to the sky and see which direction the wind is blowing or go on instinct alone. You have to have some data to sort of backup what you're doing. And that's the reason data scientists are on the team. Like that's the magic that they bring. So I listen to them. I include them in meetings, I bring them in early. I'm curious about like, what's in my data tech stack. I'm curious about how the various parts of the tech stack support the insights that we need. And so even when we get a brief, it's like, well, what's the insight here? And someone will ask, what's the insight, that's just the way we're built. And I love the idea that the data scientists come, and they're just not the folks who talk at the end of the meeting or provide the Appendix for the report. They're the actual people sitting at the table involved with the product marketing managers, they're involved with the brand team, they're involved with the channel teams, they're involved with the creative teams. And so they're just as important as every other member of the team. So listen to your data scientists.
Tom Ollerton 8:38
And help me understand what data scientists cover here right? So is this are these the quants? Are these the team that are crunching your huge data set or server performance driven business? So you've got all your channels or your audiences or you messages all coming in? Is that are they doing any of the soft stuff as well? How do you how do you balance that like ones and zeros with the reality of sitting down in front of one of your actual customers talking about the online experience or the emotions that are going through?
Beverly Jackson 9:05
So it's a little bit of a little bit of a triad or triangle, right? And so you think about, they're doing all the quantities out there, like in the back in the spreadsheets, like they're really like pulling in all the different data signals at one time. And they're trying to balance them and weight them and try to make sure that we've got the proper attribution and they're thinking about where we're getting our traffic from, and the quality of that traffic and like making sure that our search algorithms are programmed exactly right. And we've got the right keywords and that we're doing the work to target our audio, our channel communications to the right to the right audiences that we've like, like super fine tuning the audience segmentation piece that's married to my team that does the brand strategy and the PMMs that write these really tight briefs so that we're answering a real business problem that comes from our business and operations team, that's actually going to hit any of the big metrics that we're like whether it's revenue development revenue, a revenue target, or whether it's an audience growth target at acquisition target. And then that's followed with all of our channel and creative teams sort of digging in and making sure that what they are actually bringing to the brief actually meets the requirements that have been set out. And then we rinse and repeat again. And so the data scientists will also start at the front end with our insights team to help us figure out what we're actually tracking against, making sure that we've got the metrics set just right, write a really tight brief, it's aligned to our strategy, support our business operations goals. And then our channel teams and our creative teams come in to make sure that that's actually what will do the work. So even all the way down to like our frontline marketing teams, and our sales enablement teams, making sure that we're getting our sales teams what they need to actually deliver against the brand strategy, the brief, like everybody's tightly aligned to the brief, there's always a place in the brief for, for all the statistics that we need for the insights that are supporting it, to make sure that we've got the audience just right audience segmentation, all that work.
Tom Ollerton 11:14
So we've had pandemic pups, data scientists, and how to get the most out of that team. And now we're gonna move on to your shiny new object, which is the Zillow Immerse Apple Vision Pro app, I cannot tell you how much I want to hear this story, right? We've done everything in about 20 minutes. Yes, fantastic. So why is that your shiny new object?
Beverly Jackson 11:35
I love saying I love this. I love this. I love this. First of all, not everyone has an apple vision pro right now. They're still expensive. Tom, do you have one?
Tom Ollerton 11:44
I've got two.
Beverly Jackson 11:45
If you come down, if you come down, we'll let you play with ours. Come down to the beach. We'll let you play with ours. But I'm super excited about this project. So this sort of marries Zillow's history of innovation. You know, I call Zillow, like everybody's talking about AI and generative AI. Zillow is like, has like what I call the original OG of AI, right? And it is the Zestimate. So it's like, using that data and making it open source, turning the lights on for people about what their house is actually worth. Right, like that's one of the foundational building blocks to the company. Zillow also was one of the first apps in the Apple iPad. And there's this you talk to any of our founders, there's this great story about like the Apple guys coming in with like a stainless steel briefcase attached to their wrist with the with the handcuffs is great. I love it when they talk about this story. Like is amazing, right? So the founders coming in to tell you about that story. So we heard that Apple was creating this apple vision Pro, and it was gonna be like this 3d headset, and it was gonna be like, really, like, next level we're like, huh, so we've been working on a bunch of AI stuff, just to make our products smarter, just to make our our products like, like, even when you think about like, you go on to the app, and you're looking at a home, that we use AI to sort of make sure that the house shows its best like that the show the floor plans are interactive, like building all of that, like being able to see the neighborhoods, so really, really focused on that. Like, there's a whole team of folks that are building to that. So we get this opportunity from Apple to actually create the Zillow immerse which...
Tom Ollerton 13:26
And how did that work, did you write to them? Apple, we want in? Or did they because of your legacy? Did they go look, we're looking for a real estate...
Speaker 1 13:34
Our founders are smart guys right? They're well know, people know who they are. They got their phone numbers. And so I think, you know, Apple was looking around and you know, I don't want to speak for because I wasn't in that meeting, but like, I wasn't there didn't send a link to, like, hit him up and be like, yeah, give me let me talk to you about this. But um, but I got a call that says, hey, we have this really cool opportunity. And I was like, we're in like, what do we got to do? And so the team that's working on some of our AI products was like, we think we got something and so in a very short so one of the one of the things that we do at Zillow is like think big move fast, right? And so this was one of those think big move fast opportunities. So the team came up with the app, they built it out like they started working on it.
Tom Ollerton 14:24
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Can you walk me through? I put on the headset? So yeah, the face computer, face computer someone called it the other day, and what happens?
Speaker 1 15:10
So yeah, so you fire up the Zillow immerse app, which I love because my team got to name it. And I was like, Zillow immerse, that's it, that's what we're calling it. Okay, so you fire up the app, there's like passwords and stuff, you got to put in be fired up. And immediately what you have is you open the app is access to homes that you can search. And so you can find a home and actually take a tour, a 3d rendering of the tour, so you can walk into the house, in the headset, virtually.
Tom Ollerton 15:38
And are you actually moving at this stage?
Beverly Jackson 15:41
Yes, you're moving through the house. So you can walk through the house, you're not at the point where you can open up the refrigerator and like, see if there's a beer in there or whatever. Not yet. I think you might get there, I think it might get there. But you can sit on the couch and like scroll through, or you can, as you're wearing the face computer, as you call it, that it's it is you've got the headset on, you can literally walk from the kitchen, to the bedrooms, you can like go into the bathrooms, and so you're literally inside of the house. And so now, these are not houses or homes that are sort of like starter homes, right? Because right now, this is still a like a high end experience. And so this works really well like luxury homes, and people who are short on time, and they can find their way into the I'm obsessed with this thing. This will be the future of how you tour homes. And so you and your agent can walk through, I don't know this, I'm predicting this.
Tom Ollerton 16:37
And how does how's the concept made, has someone from your team got to go to this luxury home with a camera rig?
Beverly Jackson 16:43
So that's part of our business, we've got agents who know what homes sell well and we know that homes that do well have like, rich media. And they do well by benefiting from good photography and access to the home so that the buyer has the best opportunity to see the home.
Tom Ollerton 16:47
In this project. What surprised you the most what has come back from the market or from the team where you're like, Oh, I wasn't expecting that?
Beverly Jackson 17:08
So the first thing that surprised me is how fast we were able to get this thing out the door like well, it shipped and so we were ready when the launch happened. And that was amazing to me that Think Big Move fast. The other thing that surprised me is how realistic the images are, how good it looks and how like I've now we recently did a activation that came out of our time here at Cannes last year, called the the Zillow LA Rams draft house. And so LA is one of our target markets, our target market. LA obviously has a lot of really, really nice homes. And the rams have this history of doing the NFL draft from a house. So they've done it from Malibu, they've done it for like Woodland Hills. So this year they did a house in like the South Bay is what they call it in LA in Hermosa Beach, beautiful home, like with like this weird like underground bar and swim up pool. It's very nice, super cool game room. They didn't leave my house, they didn't let me keep the house. They let me keep the house they should have. And so we brought Zillow immerse, we brought our photographers in and photographed the house. And so when you came to the activation, you were actually able to walk into the house. But if you were on the other side of the country, and you wanted to see what the LA Rams draft house is, like, where they were drafting their next great players from, you could actually be in the house where they drafted it from, but having not ever been there. So it was actually really cool. So I was actually surprised that like how good the AI how good the photography was, because I actually saw the house I was inside the house, and I've seen it inside the app. And so it was it was just like being inside the experience is very cool.
Tom Ollerton 19:02
So you're not gonna answer?
Beverly Jackson 19:03
This is the future. This is the future.
Tom Ollerton 19:04
So you're not going to answer this question but I'm gonna ask you anyway, you've ticked off that, you know the innovation piece. What about the bottom end? is it converted? Have we seen any like, Do we know anything about that? Can you tell us is the conversion from the Apple vision pro gone through the roof because people have done that?
Beverly Jackson 19:20
Apple vision pro Zillow immerse? Is that what you meant Tom?
Tom Ollerton 19:27
I've still got the dog in my head.
Beverly Jackson 19:29
That pandemic pup. Nothing like taking the piss out of the host. So we have we don't have numbers yet. Right? But that's not what this one's about. Right? You win in innovation. That's not what it's about. Like, could we build it? Could we get it done? Can we marry the work that we do with our showingtime Plus products? Right, which is like 3d, rich media, 3d tours, photography, rich media, like showings of homes. Can we marry that technology? With this headset, can we infuse AI in it? And can we make it accessible to buyers? Can we do that? So we've ticked those things off, I think coming will be agents will want this, right. Like if you're selling a luxury high end home, and then someday, you know, it'll be just selling, you know, your starter home. And as consumers get smarter and smarter, and they rely more on things like the Zillow housing Super App, to help them create sort of this end to end experience without having to go to like 15 or 16 different places, it's going to be the future, right? In so many ways. You know, there's lots of things that I could tell you about, like all the cool stuff that we're doing and how we focus on the consumer and how like, you know, we're building out new campaigns that like sort of meet the consumer where they are. But if you ask me about my shiny new thing, I'd have to say that because I think I'd have to say that Zillow immerse, because I think that's going to change the way people shop when you marry that with this housing Super App concept that we're building. And so going from just searching and dreaming, and being aspirational about where you'd like to live to being able to make home a reality... game game.
Tom Ollerton 21:20
Remember, when virtual reality, this, it's simply a mixed reality experience. But remember, when it first came out, like, one of the really impressive arguments I heard is that a book can be immersive, right? If it's written well, or a film or a song, you know. And so really, the virtuality didn't, or mixed reality, it didn't really solve that what it what it's great at is proximity, right? You know, you're right next to a dinosaur, whale, or whatever. And what this, this seems, is very much tapping into that. That's the uniqueness of mixed reality, you're putting someone in the proximity of a luxury home that otherwise they'd just be clicking through on a mouse or so you're putting, putting them in the proximity of that searcher life they could be.
Beverly Jackson 22:01
So this goes from swiping and scrolling, to actually being able to see yourself like in that space, and to walk through the space, as opposed to swiping through space. And that proximity is a game changer, right? AI is just going to make that even smarter and better. And so as we're building the tools behind the scenes, the plumbing to support that, like we've got to have, in order for this to work, right, we've got to have access to the best real estate photographers, we've got to have an opportunity to build into our existing infrastructure, a way for people, all the ways that somebody might want to search for a home, and then we've got to help make it real for them. And so like, the, the idea that it's a real house, for sale by a real seller, accessible to a real buyer. And creating as authentic or real experience as possible. Because you might be on the other side. I mean, I think about like, instances where my husband and I bought a home, and he's on one side of the country on another side of the country. And we like I go out with my agent, and I'm like, I love this place. And, but he can't see it. Like we recently bought a home, we recently bought a townhouse. I had to like put him on a plane and get him to go see it because I couldn't I tried videoing it for him, we did FaceTime, but it wasn't the same as him actually seeing it. And so proximity and the realness of it, inside of this experience, the Zillow Immerse Apple VisionPRO experience. What it does is it just makes it so much more tangible. And it's it's not sort of just waving your arms around. And like we think that this idea of a housing Super App, creating this end to end solution for buyers, because we're focused primarily on first time homebuyers, right? Creating that experience for them. And helping agents have the best possible tools to actually make houses accessible to folks will make the product the process less stressful. So we can take some of that stress out of the process. We can make it easier for you, we can simplify the process, we can put everything you need all in one place. Why not? And there's nobody better set to do that than this. And so you'd asked me earlier about why Zillow, this is why.
Tom Ollerton 24:26
Well, thank you so much. We're at the end of the podcast now. So someone's heard this and thought, wow, right. That's inspirational. And they want to talk to you about any of the things we've covered today, which has been money, how where's the right place to get in touch with you and what makes a message that you will actually respond to what you're looking for from someone who reaches out.
Beverly Jackson 24:44
So the best place to look for me is on LinkedIn is pretty easy. Someone asked me recently, how many of my LinkedIn cold call messages to respond to I'm slightly weird I probably respond to upwards of 10 to 20% of them. I I look for something that is related to me, and not me personally, but I look for something that's related to my business. And so a cold call for the sake of a cold call with no context of what we're working on, doesn't really get anywhere. I might respond just to troll you or heckle you. And give you a hard time. But the reality is, is if you can ask me a question that's relevant to what I'm working on, and what our business is trying to do. If you've like, been there, our site, and you've seen it and more, and you understand what we're actually building, I'm more likely to respond.
Tom Ollerton 25:36
Great advice. Beverly, thank you so much for your time.
Beverly Jackson 25:38
Tom, it's been a pleasure.
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