Getting in a scrum with Golfbreaks' Bee Craft

"I don't want a team of people who are so frantic and actually being unproductive because they don't know actually if they're coming or going," says Bee Craft, Head of Performance Marketing at Golfbreaks.

Bee has started applying the software development methodology of scrums in her marketing team, working in two-week sprints to ensure that team members are always very clear on what they work on, with transparency about priorities and progress. This reduces the noise and frantic feeling of stakeholders constantly requesting something. Moreover, it gives Bee a clear way to push back when priorities don't allow for new work, or of re-prioritising as needed. The result is not just clarity, but also improved productivity and a better work environment for all.

On the podcast, Bee also explains why data isn't everything for marketing effectiveness, giving her top tips for considering the human context in decision making. And tune in to get her advice on how to get ahead as a student new to the industry, too.

The following gives you a good idea of what was said, but it’s not 100% accurate.

Bee Craft 0:00
Data driven marketing isn't new. We just have loads more data available to us, but I guess it's just remembering that it's not just about the data, like data is really important, but it's, I guess it's remembering that there is a human at the other end of everything that we're trying to do as marketers.

Speaker 0:23
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Tom Ollerton 0:56
Hello and welcome to the shiny new object podcast. My name is Tom Ollerton. I'm the founder of Automated Creative, the creative effectiveness ad tech platform, and this is a weekly podcast about the future of data driven marketing. And I'm the lucky guy that gets to interview all these clever people from around the industry about what they think is going to happen in the future of data driven marketing. And this week is no different at all. I'm on a call with Bee Craft, who is head of performance marketing at Golfbreaks. So Bee, for anyone who doesn't know who you are and what you do, could you give the audience a bit of background?

Bee Craft 1:30
Yes, absolutely. So I have been in digital marketing for 15 years, always been in the travel space, so a long time now seen lots of changes. And during that time, I've basically looked after most marketing channels, actually, whether that be SEO, PPC, you know, performance, marketing channels, content and you know brand as well. So seeing quite a lot over my time. And, I mean, I think one of the biggest pieces is just like, how much it's changed in that time. And I'm sure that we'll explore that a bit more in the podcast.

Tom Ollerton 2:11
Which channel have you got, like, love eyes for like, if you could go back or do it, were you like, oh, SEO is where it's up for me, you know, which one's got, like, you know, if they cut you open on your heart, what's it gonna say?

Bee Craft 2:23
Well, I did start in SEO, so, like, right back 15... 15 years ago, when it was very new, and more like, I guess, a bit black hat, where there were lots of, like, keyword stuffing and everything, and sort of like, that's obviously changed a lot since then. I, I would probably it's, it's definitely within search. I would say it's, it's organic, but so over my time, it's just understanding that whole search space. So it's definitely between organic and PPC and that search. But yeah, it's changed so much with the likes of social search coming in. So actually, that's probably just me saying all the channels, because it's as touched on social as well, really.

Tom Ollerton 3:04
So if you were going to give a smart, driven student some advice to follow in your footsteps, what advice would you give them?

Bee Craft 3:13
I would say that it's really hard to get experience somewhere without experience, and being a student, it's particularly challenging to get that experience in the first place, so you need to think about what's going to make you stand out. I've had a lot of experience recruiting students, so we have student placement programmes, and so I'm quite used to seeing students come through our doors and seeing what makes them stand out, and it can be difficult because it's so competitive out there. There aren't that many jobs for juniors, especially, and for people to be given a chance. And I think some of the things that have really stood out to me are students just taking or juniors, doesn't necessarily have to be students, obviously, people applying for grad roles, just taking a bit of initiative, reaching out to people on LinkedIn, and understanding that not everyone's going to get a response, and sometimes that rejection is a bit hard hitting. But for example, one of our one of our current students. How she first came to my attention was she reached out to me on LinkedIn and just said, Have you got anything going where I can just come and shadow your team? I live locally. I would love to just shadow your team and find out about marketing. I'd love to go into it. And she did. She came and for a week's work experience. We really used her for like work experience as well, and then she ended up getting a placement here with us, for example. So it's thinking about those different things that will make you stand out from the crowd. And it's not necessarily about skills. It's more about attributes. So like someone. Who just is really inquisitive, wants to learn more, is, like, quite passionate, especially about AI and this AI world and everything and, yeah, in inquisitive nature, I would say, like, think about the the attributes you possess that you can really own and really sell yourself essentially, because you it's not necessarily going to be the skills that you can do at that stage.

Tom Ollerton 5:27
Funny story. I was, I was a chef many years ago. I was about 30, and I don't why I decided I wanted to work in digital advertising. I did someone I was going out with. That's the truth. And so I was on Gumtree. You know, the Gumtree I don't know if Gumtree is still a thing anymore, but it was it. And there was, like, what I was searching for. But anyway, it said digital internship available. And I saw it. I saw it like, drop in. And it was like, 20 minutes walk from my house. I just walked straight down there, knocked on the door, and I'm like, I'm here about the internship. And they were like, what we just, we just posted it in this like, Ginger. Ginger guy appeared, so thanks Damian for that, for me break. But yeah, it's true.

Bee Craft 6:04
You did it?

Tom Ollerton 6:05
Show up. Yeah.

Bee Craft 6:06
Amazing.

Tom Ollerton 6:08
That's yeah. And then about a month later I was head of new business. There you go. Yeah. Gosh, I was an odd anyway, you know, I mean, you take you take your breaks don't you. But yes, I think that's true. Anyone could send a CV.

Bee Craft 6:22
Yeah, exactly.

Tom Ollerton 6:24
It's like, what is, what is the, what is the extra thing you're going to do? Everyone else isn't prepared to do? Yeah, so that's how to get a job. But once you've got a job and they're working on your team or adjacent to you, what is the best bit of advice you have to become a better data driven marketer?

Bee Craft 6:40
I think this is, like, quite a common one. And, you know, I've already mentioned AI probably about three times already, but, you know, data driven marketing isn't new, like it's always been there. We just have loads more data available to us, and although Google and Apple make it really quite challenging to unlock a lot of that. But I guess it's just remembering that it's not just about the data, like data is really important, but it's, I guess it's remembering that there is a human at the other end of everything that we're trying to do as marketers. And it's understanding that, you know, there is that human connection, and we can get so lost in being like, well, the data says this, and they're just saying this, but then actually, it's not as clean cut as that, and it's trying to understand, maybe more of what the intent is behind it. So that's definitely something that I've been trying to explore more. It's like, see beyond just the conversion, see beyond those metrics, which is all about ROAs and return and what is my money getting me and actually looking at okay, so those that didn't convert, there are people there who actually probably have a lot of intent and had built up a lot of engagement with your brand, but there was something that just didn't tip them over the edge. So it's actually understanding more about why someone didn't do something and how you can get them to act upon it. So I think AI, you know, it's it can be a dangerous tool for lazy people, like if you're just using data and looking at that and not understanding the human element behind it. So and it's also about the interpretation of the data as well, and the taking insights and how you communicate that as well. I think it's, you know, AI at the moment. I mean, at the moment, I don't know if it will, or if it does, then we're all in trouble. But like, you know, it doesn't know how to connect with a human. It doesn't know how to love someone. And I think that's the element that in marketing that you will always need. You need, like, that creative layer above data. So having those two working hand in hand is really important. But I mean, even with me, like, it's really, sometimes really easy to forget that, because it's all changing so quickly, and it's just remembering, what are those basics and why are we doing it? Who's it for?

Tom Ollerton 9:12
Yeah, we talked about this quite a lot recently. It's like, abundant data doesn't equal important data. So from early platforms, you've got this abundance of, like, as much of it as you want. You know, you can slice it and dice it. It's a deluge of stuff, but it's not necessarily the most important data, right? You've got data come from GA4 or whatever, right? You know, add to basket conversion rate. But as you say, there's a human being, and the not abundant data is what that person thinks, and the only way to get it out of them is email them, speak to them, go and see them, and that takes time. It's a big investment, and even the data you get back from them isn't necessarily that trustworthy, because often people lie about what they think versus what they do. But just because data is hard to get doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it. It doesn't mean it's less important than the abundance stuff. So I massively agree with that, and. We just published a book called using data and creativity and marketing, and I interviewed 40 very senior people about it. And that refrain was the most common is that, like, don't just look at what the data is telling you, look at what it's hiding from you as well. And that that takes, takes a bit more work.

Bee Craft 10:14
Yeah, absolutely. I think just being in that quite especially like the performance marketing space, you know, when you are getting questioned of like, well, what's the return? What? You know, these are our budgets. We need to make sure it's got this return. It's very easy to get focused so much on that one, those core metrics of conversions and everything that actually, what are, what is the rest of it, telling us, like, what are we missing in this? And how can we, I guess, improve that experience to ultimately help that end, that end goal. But it's just shifting, yeah, shifting that focus, I guess, which is hard as well to sell in, I guess, to a business as well, yeah?

Tom Ollerton 10:56
And it's like, I don't know, you should show 100 impressions and one person buys like, great. Yeah, that's we got a 1% conversion rate. Now, why did 99% of people not? Yeah, that's huge. That's a ginormous bit of data that isn't captured by your spreadsheet or your data set, right? So, yeah...

Bee Craft 11:14
Absolutely it's hard, it's hard to find that. How do you find that data, and we've actually just started looking, there's a platform called made with intent. I don't know whether you've heard with it, but it's basically that whole concept, that whole premise, which is the code behind the scenes, is amazing. And going from talking about loads of data, I'm aware that I'm about to contradict myself, but it actually shows you that intent data of people that are on your site, and looking at, you know, where's the intent built? Are people in a building intent phase? You know? Are they? Do they have low intent? And is actually customising those journeys for those people at different stages. So, for example, if someone's got low intent about to abandon like they haven't really engaged with your brand. You don't necessarily want to be showing discount codes all the time to absolutely everyone. It's maybe those people that need that nudge over the line. So it's just taught thinking about how you use the messaging differently for different people. So it is like personalization, for example, but it's just looking at different metrics to help personalise those experiences really. So it's really interesting way to be looking at data differently and visitors essentially on the website.

Tom Ollerton 12:39
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Tom Ollerton 13:16
Right. Okay, so we're gonna move on now to your shiny new object, which is scrum for marketing. What's that? What does that? I think I know what that means, but I'm not sure. Explain scrum for marketing. Why is it your shiny new object? What is it?

Bee Craft 13:29
Yeah, so it's my shiny new object, because, as we've alluded to already, like the world of data and marketing, data driven marketing is has changed so much, but it's just AI has sped up that change. And just when you think you've got something nailed, you're like, actually think I know what I'm doing here, all of a sudden something else is coming in. Like, there's a new Google algorithm update. You know, actually we need to be jumping on p max or demand gen or AI Max, and it's overwhelming. And so actually, how do you find... how can you be reactive, and how can you create a work environment that isn't just creating burnout and everyone just losing their heads and running around like headless chickens, like, how do you keep that consistency? And so for me, one of the things that I have implemented, and I don't know if I could ever not do this now, but is scrum for marketing. And essentially it's like it's a software development methodology. So you know, our software, our dev team like this is implemented in them, and basically stole it from them, and it's a framework that essentially allows you to break down larger projects into smaller, manageable tasks, and you work in sprints. So we work, for example, in two week sprints, and then essentially just everyone. One has tasks to action based on, you know, what your company goals are, or what project you need to get over the line by when. And it just means that everyone comes in and knows exactly what they're working on every single day. And we, you know, you can use, there's different platforms that you can use, project management platforms that you can use. I use Asana, but there's also JIRA that you know, that's more of a dev focus platform, but it's just really helps fight through the noise and just manage time. Essentially, it's, it can be really difficult to one, manage stakeholders. You know, getting multiple requests in marketing. Get so many requests, like, where I oversee website, content, SEO, PPC, like we there's just requests coming from everywhere, like, I want something on the website. I you know, we need to make sure that we were putting 10k more into this campaign, or whatever it is. And I like, but way back when, before this was implemented, I got to a point where I was like, No, we can't do that. We can't do that. We can't do that because it was difficult to see the wood through the trees. Like everyone was just like, well, we know we need to do this, but I also need to do this. Essentially, what it does is mean that you can make sure that you meet deadlines and projects, because you've broken down everything based on, you know, deadlines, and then if things come in, you can either move items that are already in that sprint, or you say no, like, I can't do this because we're trying. We're delivering this, this, this. If you want this to be done, then this is going to be sacrificed. It just makes conversations a lot easier. And then, from a team perspective as well, like everyone coming in, they know exactly what they are doing every day. It allows us to be really agile. And I know that that is a bit of a wanky word, I guess that people throw around a lot, but you really need to be. You need to be because it's changing so much.

Tom Ollerton 17:13
So Bee, I get it from a theoretical perspective. So yeah, so we, we also use a an agile methodology in optimising our ads, right? So for our clients, we go, right, what's the first sprint? It's going to be, we'll test visuals, and then we'll be in, test messaging, then test format, and then test something else. And it's, you know, it's hypothesis, variation, live media data, and then that, that process repeats itself. So I'm familiar with it, as many of the people will be here. But could you sort of practically not giving anything away, tell me how that might work. So say the sprint starts tomorrow. What are you going right? So the goal of this two week sprint is to increase conversion rate. Could just, could you help us understand practically what that might look like?

Bee Craft 17:56
Yeah, so we would have so every so we have two week sprints. So we work in two weeks worth of time, and what we do is we have a board, and everyone in the team will have their tasks that are for that two weeks. And how we get to that point is we will have a sprint planning session. So our sprints start on a Wednesday. We'll have a sprint planning on a Tuesday, and everyone will say, right, these are all my available hours because I've got X number of meetings. And, you know, nobody works at, say, 100% velocity, because people need comfort breaks. They need to go and have a coffee, they need to go and have a rant at the water cooler. And so it just takes into account everyone's available time, and then we can plan the work accordingly, so everyone will have say tickets within it. So that might be that, okay, I need to build this campaign. I need to allow for reporting during this time. I need to research this area, because AI Max, I'm hearing loads about that, and actually I need to explore is this right for my brand, etc, and it just breaks down everything that you need to do, which may seem a bit restrictive to some, but it's no different to having a to do list. But what it's doing is it's just actually making sure that it's a realistic to do list within that time that you have got, and it prevents burnout, essentially, because we don't want, well, I don't want a team of people who are so frantic and actually being unproductive because they don't know actually if they're coming or going. So it just actually allows people to step back and breathe and see what they need to do. And then also we and then as part of that, we have daily stand ups. So that is 15 minutes only ever, 15 minutes every morning, and the team just share, right, this is what I'm working on. This is what I did yesterday. Actually, I've got a blocker here. Can anyone help me with this? Like, oh, I'm not going to get this done because I need to speak to this person. Or actually, I'm going to really struggle. Can anyone help me with this? And it just really helps that communication as well with the team. So just having that face to face, face to face or screen to screen, if we're working from home, time just really helps manage that and also share, I guess, ideas like so from a communication perspective across the team, like the whole marketing team, everyone knows what's going on. And so, for example, if we need something from a partner because something's going live on the website, we need to build a campaign around that, or, actually, we need to put some spend behind that to launch a partnership. Then everyone's aware. And it just makes it's just a really efficient way of working. But it does also allow, it allows you, I guess, to focus on the creativity and the strategy that often would maybe get left behind because you're so busy trying to manage your time and be reactive.

Tom Ollerton 21:15
It sounds horrendous to me, but also music to my ears at the same time, because I'm terrible at going, this is the end goal. What are the milestones and working back. And, you know, because if I arrive and I'm like, Well, you've got to do this. I'm like, Oh, what's the fun in that, I quite, quite like the chaos of it, but, but however, the logic is brilliant. So how much resource do we have? What are we all trying to do? Right? We're going to go there. You're going to do that. I'm going to do that. I'm gonna do that. And if someone comes down from upstairs and says, I want this thing, you go, well, right, fine, I'm not going to do this. Which, what, what things you want me to stop doing? And that's really powerful is that, like, Sure, Yep, I'll, I'll put a green banana on the homepage, sure. But like, is that more important than crushing Black Friday or something, exactly?

Bee Craft 21:57
And don't get me wrong, there was resistance, like being marketeers at first, because, you know, we do see ourselves as as creatives as well, as data led as well. And you have, you have different levels of that. So you have some people who are very much in the creative camp. And it was seen as like, actually, this could be quite rigid and restrictive, but now, actually the whole team are on board, and that they're like me. I don't know how we work without it. And I think actually I was having this conversation at a networking event, I don't know if you've heard of it, little grey cells, which is where senior marketers... yeah. Well, I was, I've only just recently been introduced to it by Becky Simms, who does a lot with it as well. She's from Reflect Digital. She she's an owner of that agency, actually. And I don't work with her, actually. I just think that she's a lovely person. And she introduced me to it, and she was like, I actually think that this would be really great for you. And I went to my first one, and it was all about, is there a formula for marketing? And we were having this discussion on our round table about, there is no formula, but actually, sometimes a bit of process really does help, like having that a bit of structure and getting the basics right, really does help to allow you to actually get momentum and elevate and be agile and and everything.

Tom Ollerton 23:27
I'm in. I'm sold. I want to work on your team, but we're at the end of the podcast, unfortunately. So if someone wants to get in touch to talk about scrum for marketing, or any of the other things we've talked about, where's a good place and what makes a message that you'll actually respond to?

Bee Craft 23:47
Yeah, so I would say for me, it's LinkedIn, and I do sometimes struggle, because I do get a lot of people trying to sell me stuff on that. So if someone just introduced and said I heard the podcast. I'd love to find out more about this. That would be a great way of me to respond, because sometimes I the amount of times that I have to respond to sales things, and it's like, actually, this isn't for me. But yeah, I would love, I love talking about it, and the fact that the podcast is over already, actually, I have so much more to say. So yeah, very I am very open to speaking about that for anyone who does want to know more.

Tom Ollerton 24:26
Thank you so much.

Bee Craft 24:27
Amazing. Thank you, Tom.

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